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Old 11-10-2010, 12:38 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
This is a bs argument ... do you have to be an "elite" construction worker to make enough to feed your family? Do you have to be an elite janitor to get regular pay? You clearly don't have to be an elite commentator to make 100s of K, just ask Goldie.

Then why, as a guy that is risking life and limb that is already among the top 2% of his profession (to even make it to the UFC after slogging through amateur orgs and small pro orgs) have to be "more elite" to make minimum wage in this company as a fighter, counting your training and medical expenses? Most people will never be champs, does that mean they get shafted their whole lives no matter how hard they work?

Seriously, $8000 per fight with about 3 fights per year is $24,000 year, which is $11.50 per hour for a guy putting in full time (40 hrs/week), and that's before training and medical expenses. Even janitors and construction workers make more, and they don't have any expenses. And if you have any skills at all (plumbers, electricians, ironworkers etc.), you make more than four times as much.
Show my one fighter that fought 3 times in the UFC in one year and only made $24k.

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Originally Posted by Finnsidious View Post
Another thing to consider is the odds of successfully becoming a UFC fighter.

The comparisons to the NFL or NHL are frankly, absurd. MMA has grown in leaps and bounds, but to make the NFL, you have to be better than literally millions of people who would also like to play professional football, and you are compensated accordingly.

MMA has nowhere near that number of people trying to be professional fighters. I don't know what the numbers are, but it is still way WAY easier to become a professional MMA fighter than to make the top league of the big four, NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA.

I'm not saying its easy mind you, just that it's easier to beat out tens of thousands of people for a spot than it is to beat out tens of millions of people for a spot. MMA is catching up fast, and in another 10 or 20 years there may not be that much difference, but right now it is definately a much smaller pool of talent.

Having said that, I agree about the relative payouts. The most relevant factor is a percentage of the revenue coming in, regardless of what that is. If the UFC paid out 1 million in salaries to 10 fighters on one card, that might seem like a lot, but if they took in 50 million in profit, the fighters are getting hosed. I don't know if the numbers are like that, but I think that the lower ranked fighters probably should be paid a bit more considering the profits the UFC is making.
You admit that you have no idea how much profit the UFC makes, yet you just assume they are screwing the fighters.
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Old 11-10-2010, 04:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
This is a bs argument ... do you have to be an "elite" construction worker to make enough to feed your family? Do you have to be an elite janitor to get regular pay? You clearly don't have to be an elite commentator to make 100s of K, just ask Goldie.

Then why, as a guy that is risking life and limb that is already among the top 2% of his profession (to even make it to the UFC after slogging through amateur orgs and small pro orgs) have to be "more elite" to make minimum wage in this company as a fighter, counting your training and medical expenses? Most people will never be champs, does that mean they get shafted their whole lives no matter how hard they work?

Seriously, $8000 per fight with about 3 fights per year is $24,000 year, which is $11.50 per hour for a guy putting in full time (40 hrs/week), and that's before training and medical expenses. Even janitors and construction workers make more, and they don't have any expenses. And if you have any skills at all (plumbers, electricians, ironworkers etc.), you make more than four times as much
.
Janitors and construction workers make around that actually...

And plumbers, electricians and ironworkers usually do not make 6 figures. So yeah.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:29 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
You don't even see the irony in your statement do you? You compare to other athletic sports, all of which pay at least 20 times what the UFC does. I was comparing to freakin janitors and you want to do the NFL?? Fine, guess what ... even if you're worth NOTHING to the team, sell no PPVs, sit on your ass your whole career and sip Coors, you still get a MINIMUM of $285,000 / year as mandated by the NFL (and this was in 2007).

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...ry_for_the_NFL

Making more as you're worth more to the team is obviously a logical thing. What it does not justify is paying below poverty line salaries for the rank and file member of your profession (who in this case happen to among the elite of their profession, just not elite of the elite). That is termed as exploitation. No one is asking for million dollar payouts for the Reljics and Petzs of the world, but $5000?

And don't tell me the UFC can't afford it, both the Fertittas are billionaires solely on the basis of the UFC ... if they're paying Ortiz half a mil for doing some of the worst PPV sales in recent years, they can pay a few thousand more to the other fighters.

The whole "It's communist" to expect fair remuneration argument shows the shallow left-right lines that America is divided on. If it's isn't complete corporate-greed loving, then it has to be communist. I am right leaning in my economic and political views and dislike socialism and freeloading, but apparently in America that means people will force me to categorize myself on the other extreme as some kind of Gordon Gecko.

Newsflash, if it wasn't for unions and labor laws, you'd probably be choking on dust in a coal-mine somewhere 7 days a week (yup, weekends were brought about due to union action).





The same old you gotta be worth a lot to make any money thing. It's a free country, if they weren't making the company money, they'd be fired. (but on a side note, if they wanted to QUIT, watch out for those UFC contracts!)

Fact is you cannot gauge exactly how much money they're making the company ... can they have a card with only two fights of the big names? How much do you think that would make? I doubt anyone would shell out more than $15 bucks for a 30 min event. And a lot of the times those main fights are boring as hell too, while the rank-and-file fighters are the ones people enjoy. Either way, any 2nd grader could calculate that "what they're making the company" is a lot more than $5000 on a $30-$70 mil pie.

Also, fighters aren't exclusive in only being valuable based on how much they make the company, EVERY job is like that. Companies don't pay people money because they're charities, they do it because they make money from their employees' work.

A manager who gets the company good deals and boosts sales / productivity will obviously get a better pay packet. So will an engineer, a programmer etc. But that doesn't mean that all the other managers or engineers somehow have to subsist on minimum wage in a company making billions, because "only the best" deserve a decent starting salary. In fact, in most of those professions, no matter how much you suck, your experience level will inevitably add on to your base salary ... whereas a fighter will get poorer and poorer the more experienced he gets unless he hits the lottery and becomes contender level.



UFC 116 did around $70 mil actually, just calculate from the 4 mil gate and 1.16 mil PPV buys. Even after cost deductions for TV cos, arenas, marketing etc., they have to be making at least 20% profit on the Gross sales, and that is without counting the massive amounts they bring in from merchandising such as UFC clothing, videogames, action figures etc. I would wager the merchandising profits rival those of the actual PPVs, as they do for most sports.



$8000 is actually a mid-level figure, guys like Reljic picked up $5000 for their last fight at UFC 116 ... so he's effectively making $10-15K a year as are most base level fighters. This is if he's lucky and injury-free the whole year in a profession where half the top athletes are injured most of the year.



You use your example as a cameraman, but never state how much you make? Because even you probably make at least twice if not 3 times the $15/24K a year. And no offense, but your showing up 30 mins early and pulling some frayed wires apart in no way compares to getting punched in the face every day and being driven to exhaustion. I'm not doubting that what you do is hard work and long hours, but I'd still rate it less intense than what these guys go through.

Like I said, no one is expecting the "cameraman" level guys of the UFC like Reljic to be paid at the "actor" level guys like Lesnar (although your comparison is a bit "apples and spaceships" itself since it cuts across professions whereas I'm talking about others in the same profession or similar ones such as NFL and Boxing), but at least pay them "cameraman" level salaries. What if you got paid $15K a year? What if there was only one successful co. in your field, because it had the first mover advantage?

Also, fighters may not train 40 hours a week, but most of them do this full time (only exceptions at the UFC level are Sonnen and Carwin). You can't exactly go and calculate investment portfolios after severe exhaustion and beatdowns for 4 hours.

The UFC is only getting away with it because they're using their unanimity with the sport as an exploitation, as opposed to other sports orgs that have no real competition like the NFL and NBA, which have fair pay structures because of years of effort by sports managers and united efforts by athletes.
First point: The NFL does not have PPV's, they are on network TV which pays the NFL tens of BILLIONS of dollars for the rights to air the games. They have a union and there are minimum contracts. But we are talking 10's of billions!

Second Point: It does not matter if you are among the elite of a profession when it comes to pay. If you are the absolute best Curler in the world, you are not going to make near what Payton Manning does, the money just isnt there. The UFC doesnt make anywhere near what the NFL does so minimum pay will be far less!

Third Point: You are right, I dont get punched in the face at work. My career path did not lead to that. MMA fighters on the other hand did! Plus, I do train in MMA, and work hard at it. When not at work I am in the Gym, I have a Black Belt in Jitz and went to state championships in HS Wrestling! I WORK HARD AT IT! So should I get paid a ton of money for that? Nope, I shouldnt! Because if I fought in the UFC it would only add about 3 ppv buys total!


Forth Point: How in the world can you even guess what type of profit the UFC is making? You CANT, its that simple! I know for a fact that just the crew and gear alone to produce a show like that costs well over $2m a show. Then you have all the vendors of the PPV, sat time, the arena for 2-3 days... The list goes on and on. My educated guess is they get 20-30 cents on the PPV dollar before fighter pay out, but that is just a guess knowing what I know about TV.

Fifth Point: If there was only one company willing to pay me and they were not willing to pay me what I could live off of I would find another career, or if I like this one so much I would supplement my income!

Last Point: Merchandise and the such is not a figure I even consider when thinking about fighter pay. There is a good chance that the fighters get paid for merchandise sales and the amounts I am sure are negotiated by their agents. We dont know what they make because Zuffa does not release those numbers and the contracts are private. The only numbers we know are the show and win amounts, and for many fighters that is only a part of the money they make!

Now should a new fighter that is fighting in the UFC get a merch check? NOT AT ALL. The UFC built the brand and owes nothing to that fighter.... YET!
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:59 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
You don't even see the irony in your statement do you? You compare to other athletic sports, all of which pay at least 20 times what the UFC does. I was comparing to freakin janitors and you want to do the NFL?? Fine, guess what ... even if you're worth NOTHING to the team, sell no PPVs, sit on your ass your whole career and sip Coors, you still get a MINIMUM of $285,000 / year as mandated by the NFL (and this was in 2007).

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...ry_for_the_NFL

Making more as you're worth more to the team is obviously a logical thing. What it does not justify is paying below poverty line salaries for the rank and file member of your profession (who in this case happen to among the elite of their profession, just not elite of the elite). That is termed as exploitation. No one is asking for million dollar payouts for the Reljics and Petzs of the world, but $5000?

And don't tell me the UFC can't afford it, both the Fertittas are billionaires solely on the basis of the UFC ... if they're paying Ortiz half a mil for doing some of the worst PPV sales in recent years, they can pay a few thousand more to the other fighters.

The whole "It's communist" to expect fair remuneration argument shows the shallow left-right lines that America is divided on. If it's isn't complete corporate-greed loving, then it has to be communist. I am right leaning in my economic and political views and dislike socialism and freeloading, but apparently in America that means people will force me to categorize myself on the other extreme as some kind of Gordon Gecko.

Newsflash, if it wasn't for unions and labor laws, you'd probably be choking on dust in a coal-mine somewhere 7 days a week (yup, weekends were brought about due to union action).





The same old you gotta be worth a lot to make any money thing. It's a free country, if they weren't making the company money, they'd be fired. (but on a side note, if they wanted to QUIT, watch out for those UFC contracts!)

Fact is you cannot gauge exactly how much money they're making the company ... can they have a card with only two fights of the big names? How much do you think that would make? I doubt anyone would shell out more than $15 bucks for a 30 min event. And a lot of the times those main fights are boring as hell too, while the rank-and-file fighters are the ones people enjoy. Either way, any 2nd grader could calculate that "what they're making the company" is a lot more than $5000 on a $30-$70 mil pie.

Also, fighters aren't exclusive in only being valuable based on how much they make the company, EVERY job is like that. Companies don't pay people money because they're charities, they do it because they make money from their employees' work.

A manager who gets the company good deals and boosts sales / productivity will obviously get a better pay packet. So will an engineer, a programmer etc. But that doesn't mean that all the other managers or engineers somehow have to subsist on minimum wage in a company making billions, because "only the best" deserve a decent starting salary. In fact, in most of those professions, no matter how much you suck, your experience level will inevitably add on to your base salary ... whereas a fighter will get poorer and poorer the more experienced he gets unless he hits the lottery and becomes contender level.



UFC 116 did around $70 mil actually, just calculate from the 4 mil gate and 1.16 mil PPV buys. Even after cost deductions for TV cos, arenas, marketing etc., they have to be making at least 20% profit on the Gross sales, and that is without counting the massive amounts they bring in from merchandising such as UFC clothing, videogames, action figures etc. I would wager the merchandising profits rival those of the actual PPVs, as they do for most sports.



$8000 is actually a mid-level figure, guys like Reljic picked up $5000 for their last fight at UFC 116 ... so he's effectively making $10-15K a year as are most base level fighters. This is if he's lucky and injury-free the whole year in a profession where half the top athletes are injured most of the year.



You use your example as a cameraman, but never state how much you make? Because even you probably make at least twice if not 3 times the $15/24K a year. And no offense, but your showing up 30 mins early and pulling some frayed wires apart in no way compares to getting punched in the face every day and being driven to exhaustion. I'm not doubting that what you do is hard work and long hours, but I'd still rate it less intense than what these guys go through.

Like I said, no one is expecting the "cameraman" level guys of the UFC like Reljic to be paid at the "actor" level guys like Lesnar (although your comparison is a bit "apples and spaceships" itself since it cuts across professions whereas I'm talking about others in the same profession or similar ones such as NFL and Boxing), but at least pay them "cameraman" level salaries. What if you got paid $15K a year? What if there was only one successful co. in your field, because it had the first mover advantage?

Also, fighters may not train 40 hours a week, but most of them do this full time (only exceptions at the UFC level are Sonnen and Carwin). You can't exactly go and calculate investment portfolios after severe exhaustion and beatdowns for 4 hours.

The UFC is only getting away with it because they're using their unanimity with the sport as an exploitation, as opposed to other sports orgs that have no real competition like the NFL and NBA, which have fair pay structures because of years of effort by sports managers and united efforts by athletes.
The NFL has over 30 owners and oodles of sponsors and network deals to pay their players.

The UFC has 3.

The NFL has over 30 billionaires.

The UFC has 3.

Said billionaires only worry about the operations of their team, not the brand as a whole

The UFC owners do everything and anything.

See where I am going with this?

The NFL also, a whole has been around for damn near a half century longer, and makes a ton more money. UFC is popular, but it doesn't have about 94 channels that pay them to air their programming.

Hell, the NFL is so popular, they have network deals for stations that just TALK about the NFL, and people WATCH it.

Also, mind you, the NFL contracts have only exploded recently.

During the 60s, guys like Jim Brown, probably the biggest star on the Browns was making about 15k, or 105k in today's standards. The UFC's relative payscale considering both of their stages of development is slightly higher, actually.
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