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Old 11-30-2010, 02:44 PM   #171 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
The topic of this thread is "Matt Hughes is not a nice man".

I say he is. I have personal experience to base my opinion on. You have a poorly written book which you may or may not read. And a lot of "well he said it..."
well to be fair he can be nice to some and a douche to others, just like every1 else

but what does make some1 a nice person? IMO i think even though some1 is having the worst day possible and is under a lot of stress they still treat you well...to me thats a nice person

there are stories of hughes simply losing it for some reason when some fans interact with him...bad day or not it doesnt seem like a nice thing to do

im sure he has done many nice things in his life and many crappy things, but it just seems like the guy tries to be nice instead of actually being nice

but i agree that we simply cant just define him as a evil person based on 1 or 2 actions or his book (unless you have read it i guess)

though i think you really cant define him as a nice man also, he was nice to you, that doesnt make him nice, you are also judging him based on limited experiences.

is he nice or isnt he? who the hell knows...lets ask his son or wife..
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:45 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oldfan View Post
The topic of this thread is "Matt Hughes is not a nice man".

I say he is. I have personal experience to base my opinion on. You have a poorly written book which you may or may not read. And a lot of "well he said it..."
ok so we have your ''E-testimony'' of one meeting
(unreliable, anonymous, probably biased , and in terms of actual worth irrelevant)

vs

an expansive citable verifiable document, written by the guy himself on himself and his life story
(primary source, after the event, reliable evidence, biased towards the source it condemns)

historically speaking id say your meeting has little or no significance compared to an autobiography.

playing semantics over the word nice is one thing.

arguing with the legitimacy of the source or the existence of passages that strongly and unwittingly indict its own orator is bordering on bigoted ignorance to the facts of the argument.

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Old 11-30-2010, 03:39 PM   #173 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VincePierce View Post
Matt hughes aint hitler. but he does sound like a ****. and its a shame because i quite liked him before. you hear this stuff about red necks and you figure its just the democrats and the liberal media. wow. there may be some truth in the redneck image afterall. but regardless of where he was born, its his attitude and actions as described in his book that i am reading now, that seem to suggest he is in fact a ****.

wow. matt hughes seems like a prick. and i actually quite liked him before.

shame.
Meh, goodie-two-shoes are overrated.

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Originally Posted by VincePierce View Post
ok so we have your ''E-testimony'' of one meeting
(unreliable, anonymous, probably biased , and in terms of actual worth irrelevant)

vs

an expansive citable verifiable document, written by the guy himself on himself and his life story
(primary source, after the event, reliable evidence, biased towards the source it condemns)

historically speaking id say your meeting has little or no significance compared to an autobiography.

playing semantics over the word nice is one thing.

arguing with the legitimacy of the source or the existence of passages that strongly and unwittingly indict its own orator is bordering on bigoted ignorance to the facts of the argument.
Apart from the fact that the book was probably not written by Hughes, but rather by a ghost-writer (I'll accept that the writer was basing his testimony on Hughes' own view and that Hughes doesn't disagree with anything in the book, which seems fair to me).

If you think that reading a text of a person discussing their own life story is enough to come to a full indictment of that person as an enormous douche, then that's your prerogative, but to form a qualitative judgment about a person on the basis of a book seems more than a little juvenile.

Plenty of people come off as indicting themselves in discussing their own lives. Plenty of people are proud of things they probably shouldn't be. Plenty of people (especially those in positions to write autobiographies) are narcissistic. All of those things may be (and probably are) true of Matt Hughes.

But to insist that your lopsided, account of his character is based on "fact," as if there aren't facts to the contrary is pure nonsense.

Of course there are instances of Hughes being a dick (just like there are instances of you being a dick). Of course there are instances of Hughes being a nice guy (just like there are instances of you being a nice guy). The fact that, in your encounter with Hughes (in the text of the book), he comes across as a pompous blowhard does not speak to his general character, it speaks to your experience of the book. To pretend like its more than that is its own subtle and ridiculous form of narcissism.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:01 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Meh, goodie-two-shoes are overrated.



Apart from the fact that the book was probably not written by Hughes, but rather by a ghost-writer (I'll accept that the writer was basing his testimony on Hughes' own view and that Hughes doesn't disagree with anything in the book, which seems fair to me).

If you think that reading a text of a person discussing their own life story is enough to come to a full indictment of that person as an enormous douche, then that's your prerogative, but to form a qualitative judgment about a person on the basis of a book seems more than a little juvenile.

Plenty of people come off as indicting themselves in discussing their own lives. Plenty of people are proud of things they probably shouldn't be. Plenty of people (especially those in positions to write autobiographies) are narcissistic. All of those things may be (and probably are) true of Matt Hughes.

But to insist that your lopsided, account of his character is based on "fact," as if there aren't facts to the contrary is pure nonsense.

Of course there are instances of Hughes being a dick (just like there are instances of you being a dick). Of course there are instances of Hughes being a nice guy (just like there are instances of you being a nice guy). The fact that, in your encounter with Hughes (in the text of the book), he comes across as a pompous blowhard does not speak to his general character, it speaks to your experience of the book. To pretend like its more than that is its own subtle and ridiculous form of narcissism.
nah, im 100% scum. dont worry about that.

he wrote a book all about his life. the book tells his story in his words. i read it and hes a ****. you can put your claws away son. the snipey comments dont help your case. youre reaching like a trooper. but no. im sorry. hes a ****in mess as a human being.

i have said my piece on this thread. and its down to other ppl to form their opinions tho. that is true.

1 lots of ppl agree with me. ive cited amazon and google books...full of shocked hughes / ufc fans who read the thing.

2 the book is cast iron ****in evidence of who he is on the inside. thats why autobiographies exist in the first place.

3 i dont know him and ultimately i try not to judge ppl i dont know. but if my neighbour had written that book... i wouldnt want to know him either.

lastly as ive previously stated. this is not me v matt hughes. but a lot of ppl were giving the OP shit and frankly whilst he might not be the most neutral person, he does have a point.

what you think sir, is completely up to you.

flame/scratch away...thats pretty much all i got to say on this subject.

Last edited by VincePierce : 11-30-2010 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:40 PM   #175 (permalink)
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I dont know Hughes, but Ive read his book and seen him in a lot of interviews. I def think he comes off like a douche. That said, I respect fighters like Hughes and Kos over guys like GSP. Hughes and Kos seem real. They are dicks and they dont try to make it a big secret. GSP kind of reminds me of Tiger Woods. He has created this squeaky clean image of himself. He has tried incredibly hard to come off in a perfect way that he thinks fans will respect and like him for. That works all fine and dandy until he does something stupid. When/if it happens, it will seem so much worse because of the image he has spent so much time trying to project. Tiger Woods didnt do anything that a large number of professional athletes do, he just happened to have created a persona that was impossble to live up to.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:22 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincePierce View Post
nah, im 100% scum. dont worry about that.
Fair enough.

Quote:
he wrote a book all about his life. the book tells his story in his words. i read it and hes a ****. you can put your claws away son. the snipey comments dont help your case. youre reaching like a trooper. but no. im sorry. hes a ****in mess as a human being.
This is not an argument, nor is it a response to anything I've said.

You're welcome to bang your hand on the table (though, as a moderator, I'd appreciate you cut back, or at least self-censor, the swearing).


Quote:
i have said my piece on this thread. and its down to other ppl to form their opinions tho. that is true.
And they will. They always do.

Quote:
1 lots of ppl agree with me. ive cited amazon and google books...full of shocked hughes / ufc fans who read the thing.
I wrote one of those reviews. Usually, though, I don't take anything on either of those two sites too seriously.

Quote:
2 the book is cast iron ****in evidence of who he is on the inside. thats why autobiographies exist in the first place.
The book is evidence of who he is on the inside? Seriously? That's your argument?

You think the totality of his person is expressed in 300ish pages?

I seriously hope you're joking.


Quote:
3 i dont know him and ultimately i try not to judge ppl i dont know. but if my neighbour had written that book... i wouldnt want to know him either.
"I don't want to know him," would have been entirely fair. It's the judgment of the character and then admitting that you don't know him very well that makes this whole attempt at an argument (sloppy as a bulldog eating mayonaise) that makes this so bizarre.

Quote:
lastly as ive previously stated. this is not me v matt hughes. but a lot of ppl were giving the OP shit and frankly whilst he might not be the most neutral person, he does have a point.

what you think sir, is completely up to you.

flame/scratch away...thats pretty much all i got to say on this subject.
And now the obligatory disappearing act into internet-oblivion.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:30 PM   #177 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
The book is evidence of who he is on the inside? Seriously? That's your argument?

You think the totality of his person is expressed in 300ish pages?

I seriously hope you're joking.
Why does the totality of his personality need to be summed up in the book? Isn't it enough that many personality traits are exhibited? I don't need to know every single facet of someones personality to dislike enough about them to form a judgement. In this case you have a wealth of information to base judgement on.

I really do not understand how you can argue that an autobiography has no merit when judging someones life. It is a primary source of information that directly relates to his personality.

If Hughes were a famous politician being studied in a history class do you think his autobiography would be tossed aside as worthless when evaluating his character?

If you were asked to write a history paper 75 years from now on Hughes personality where would you gather better evidence from? You could meet with Hughes many times and not learn as much about him as you did from a single reading of the book.

300 pages is a lot of time to show consistent personality traits that we as fans have also noticed previously in interviews and on TUF. To act as though an autobiography cannot be used as evidence when judging someones personality I just cannot understand.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:59 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ape City View Post
Why does the totality of his personality need to be summed up in the book? Isn't it enough that many personality traits are exhibited? I don't need to know every single facet of someones personality to dislike enough about them to form a judgement. In this case you have a wealth of information to base judgement on.
Again, I'm trying to draw a distinction between disliking someone and disparaging him.

There are people in the sport that I think are worth disparaging. All are worse than Hughes, in that they've had a negative impact on the sport.

You can dislike Hughes. It's the references to Hughes in terms of qualitative language that I find annoying.


Quote:
I really do not understand how you can argue that an autobiography has no merit when judging someones life. It is a primary source of information that directly relates to his personality.

If Hughes were a famous politician being studied in a history class do you think his autobiography would be tossed aside as worthless when evaluating his character?
I was pretty sure I didn't say it has "no merit." And I certainly didn't mean that.

The problem is that his retelling and glorifying of his own history (which is, by itself, enough to tell you that Hughes is a narcissist; something no one should dispute) isn't indicative of all of his behavior.

Is it relevant? Absolutely. Does it have merit? Yes. Does it allow for a full judgment? No, it doesn't.


Quote:
If you were asked to write a history paper 75 years from now on Hughes personality where would you gather better evidence from? You could meet with Hughes many times and not learn as much about him as you did from a single reading of the book.
As far as the history goes, I treat with suspicion any autobiography. There's way too much incentive to lie. So does most of the history professors and students I work with.

I prefer interviews. I prefer information that's on video, or recorded by independent, disinterested sources. But that's just me.

Now, would I set aside the autobiography entirely? No. I've already said that it's definitely important. However, I'd be suspicious of it, and I certainly don't think that it'd be a good basis for creating a history of Matt Hughes.

That said, writing a history of Matt Hughes is totally different than writing about the character of Matt Hughes. I don't think that historians should make character judgments. There are plenty that do, but the intellectual framework there is really, really shakey.


Quote:
300 pages is a lot of time to show consistent personality traits that we as fans have also noticed previously in interviews and on TUF. To act as though an autobiography cannot be used as evidence when judging someones personality I just cannot understand.
Again, TUF doesn't really qualify as a legitimate, disinterested source, in terms of getting something unbiased. I was as pissed off as anybody else after his stint on TUF. The stunt with the Bibles was pretty ridiculous, and I think was still a huge mistake, and seriously presumptious.

But, like the book, I think that you can chalk both up to his narcissism (and, perhaps, stupidity). I have no reason to think he's a scumbag.

I believe in Hanlon's Razor, and I think that in Matt Hughes' case (especially in the case of the autobiography) it can be applied liberally: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:30 PM   #179 (permalink)
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because hughs came off to you as a prick/scum means that it is a fact that he is one?

I read the book and say he seams like a normal guy....So where are we now?

a book may be read many different ways because of many variables like for instance if you like the guy or dislike the guy before you read it, where you are at in your own life when you read it ect... So to say matt is scum because that is what you got from the book is kinda childish IMO thinking that the way you think is right and that if anyone got things differently they are wrong.

every post in here is going to be hearsay and strongly opinion based
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:26 PM   #180 (permalink)
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and let the debating/arguing start again
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