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Old 12-07-2009, 10:28 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
I don't agree with that. Jones gnp was pretty good, but Hamill was getting his arms in there and stopping a lot of them, if not most from doing full damage. I think it was a rare moment where we actually saw Maz do right in NOT stopping it earlier. There were only a few strikes that got in there with full force. Including the last couple of illegal elbows that had Hamill pulling guard for no reason.
Again, I mentioned this earlier. There are about 20 seconds in which Hamill literally does nothing to resist the punishment. He just puts the hands in front of his face and the hooks go through.

He only starts to get the arms in once Jones slows down to look at Mazzagatti, wondering why the hell he wasn't doing anything.


Quote:
So he couldn't continue because of his shoulder?
Yeah. I realize you're trying to point out that the statements are contradictory in nature. They're not.

Fighters continue after sustaining mild concussions all the time. They try to regain orientation, usually try and work their way into the clinch and slow the pace, and sometimes it works.

Very, very few fighters will even attempt to continue with a dislocated shoulder. That's a fight ending injury, while a mild concussion is only a potentially fight ending injury.

Hamill's camp has admitted that his shoulder was the reason he could no longer continue. That seems like clear evidence that the 12-to-6 elbow had nothing to do with the end of the fight (as well as the fact that the dislocation happened much earlier).


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Originally Posted by TheGrizzlyBear View Post
I think the DQ was a good call, He went back and used the new instant replay to see what happened. He saw the damage caused from the illegal elbows and ruled it a DQ.
Again. The fact that the illegal elbow caused damage does not legitimize the DQ. In order to justify the DQ, there needs to be a connection between the illegal elbow and the end of the fight.

If (and this is a big if) Mazzagatti had stopped the fight and called the doctor in to take a look at the cut on Hamill's nose (which he didn't, a stupid call on his part) and the doctor had found that the cut was too severe to allow Hamill to continue, then Mazzagatti could end the fight and declare the fight a DQ, as the illegal elbow was the clear reason for the cut.

But that's not what Mazzagatti did.

Mazzagatti consulted Hamill about Hamill's willingness to continue. Hamill (who, because of his deafness, was rushed to a decision and unable to communicate with Mazzagatti) threw in the towel, but for a reason that had nothing to do with the cut. He's even said that.

Mazzagatti used the instant replay, which is great technology as far as I'm concerned, but the failure wasn't in the implementation of the technology, it was the effective use of the rules. The rules on when it's appropriate to issue a DQ are clear, and even Keith Kizer has said in post-fight interviews that an ending needs to be demonstrated.

At best, Mazzagatti and the people defending him are engaging in post hoc thinking.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:36 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Again, I mentioned this earlier. There are about 20 seconds in which Hamill literally does nothing to resist the punishment. He just puts the hands in front of his face and the hooks go through.

He only starts to get the arms in once Jones slows down to look at Mazzagatti, wondering why the hell he wasn't doing anything.
Not all of them went through and when they did, Hamill's arms prevented full damage. Hamill was hanging in there up until the illegal blows, no reason for Maz to step in prior to that.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Yeah. I realize you're trying to point out that the statements are contradictory in nature. They're not.

Fighters continue after sustaining mild concussions all the time. They try to regain orientation, usually try and work their way into the clinch and slow the pace, and sometimes it works.

Very, very few fighters will even attempt to continue with a dislocated shoulder. That's a fight ending injury, while a mild concussion is only a potentially fight ending injury.

Hamill's camp has admitted that his shoulder was the reason he could no longer continue. That seems like clear evidence that the 12-to-6 elbow had nothing to do with the end of the fight (as well as the fact that the dislocation happened much earlier).
Did you not see Hamill after Jones was pulled off of him? That didn't look like a fighter that just dislocated his shoulder and couldn't continue. He didn't know where he was for a while and for sure couldn't see either. That was a cause of the illegal elbows.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:43 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
Not all of them went through and when they did, Hamill's arms prevented full damage. Hamill was hanging in there up until the illegal blows, no reason for Maz to step in prior to that.
It's not an intelligent defense to keep the hands in front of the face. A solid number of punches, including the hooks, got through.

My point is not that the damage he took was excessive (certainly fighters have taken worse damage in terms of strikes delivered from the mount and still managed to continue). My point is that he failed to intelligently defend himself by any definition of the term.

If you're in that position, an intelligent defense means at least attempting to control the arms. I just went back and watched the ground-and-pound and I'm comfortable with my initial count of 20-25 seconds between when Jones starts delivering punishment and when Hamill actually starts looking to control an arm.


Quote:
Did you not see Hamill after Jones was pulled off of him? That didn't look like a fighter that just dislocated his shoulder and couldn't continue. He didn't know where he was for a while and for sure couldn't see either. That was a cause of the illegal elbows.
The reason he gave for his inability to continue was the shoulder injury.

I'm not going to argue that he was totally conscious or that his face looked fine. The guy looked like a f*cking hamburger and clearly had some issues getting himself back together.

But, and this is conducive with the video of the actual fight, he said in the post fight interview (and in subsequent interviews) that the problem with continuing was his shoulder.

Again. Fighters will fight through bloody and broken noses. Fighters will fight through concussions.

Fighters will not fight through a dislocated shoulder. It's just not possible. The injury takes away too much of a fighter's game to allow him to work effectively. That was the basis of Hamill's decision.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:58 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
I don't agree with that. Jones gnp was pretty good, but Hamill was getting his arms in there and stopping a lot of them, if not most from doing full damage. I think it was a rare moment where we actually saw Maz do right in NOT stopping it earlier. There were only a few strikes that got in there with full force. Including the last couple of illegal elbows that had Hamill pulling guard for no reason.





So he couldn't continue because of his shoulder?

I gotta agree with Josh I mean Hamill said his shoulder was injured....I have dislocated a shoulder but it is still possible to still try to raise your arm and defend your face especially with hamil's heart....I think the fact that the propper steps werent taken is another example of being Mazzed!!!

I am no longetr betting on fights that he refs....except I dont think there is any way to know in advance who will be the ref....

God he sucks!!!!




D.P. You dont think if hamil was doing like permenant damage to his shoulder cuz it was dislocated that he should be alllowed to keep going???? I thought part of the ref's job is to protect the fighter from himself.....


FTR....His face wasnt hamburger either it was that he was on his back, his nose was smashed, but he chose to close his eyes to keep the blood out and being on his back the eye sockets and nose were a bloodly mess, once wiped away his nose had really the only big gash!!!

Last edited by coldcall420 : 12-07-2009 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 12-07-2009, 12:11 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
It's not an intelligent defense to keep the hands in front of the face. A solid number of punches, including the hooks, got through.

My point is not that the damage he took was excessive (certainly fighters have taken worse damage in terms of strikes delivered from the mount and still managed to continue). My point is that he failed to intelligently defend himself by any definition of the term.

If you're in that position, an intelligent defense means at least attempting to control the arms. I just went back and watched the ground-and-pound and I'm comfortable with my initial count of 20-25 seconds between when Jones starts delivering punishment and when Hamill actually starts looking to control an arm.
I think it was intelligent enough of a defense to stop most punches and strikes from having full damage on him. It wasn't enough to warrant a stoppage before the illegal elbows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
The reason he gave for his inability to continue was the shoulder injury.

I'm not going to argue that he was totally conscious or that his face looked fine. The guy looked like a f*cking hamburger and clearly had some issues getting himself back together.

But, and this is conducive with the video of the actual fight, he said in the post fight interview (and in subsequent interviews) that the problem with continuing was his shoulder.

Again. Fighters will fight through bloody and broken noses. Fighters will fight through concussions.

Fighters will not fight through a dislocated shoulder. It's just not possible. The injury takes away too much of a fighter's game to allow him to work effectively. That was the basis of Hamill's decision.
Yeah, that was Hamill's saying of why he couldn't continue. But everyone else who watched the fight could see that after those brutal elbows, shoulder or not, he wasn't going to be able to continue fighting.
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Old 12-07-2009, 12:30 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
I think it was intelligent enough of a defense to stop most punches and strikes from having full damage on him. It wasn't enough to warrant a stoppage before the illegal elbows.
An intelligent defense means, at the very least, the fighter must be looking to escape the position instead of just "weather the storm." If the guy's not even showing that he's looking for a way out, then it's hard to justify an "intelligent defense."

He could've been completely out, like Schaub, just staring at the lights. Instead, he tried to minimize some of the damage by covering, but he made no attempt to control


Quote:
Yeah, that was Hamill's saying of why he couldn't continue. But everyone else who watched the fight could see that after those brutal elbows, shoulder or not, he wasn't going to be able to continue fighting.
That's a crappy defense.

If the nose is going to be the reason to end the fight, the referee can't make that decision. The medical professional has to be the one to make that call on behalf of the fighter.

Hamill's reason for why he couldn't continue was the one that ended the fight. It's the only one that matters when it comes to reevaluating the call by Mazzagatti, because it is what lead directly to the end of the fight.

If Mazzagatti had actually done his job (stop the fight, wait for input for the doctors before issuing either a deduction or a DQ), there might be some room to defend his actions, but I think it's clear that if Hamill had just suffered the nose injury, he probably could've continued fighting. We've all seen worse in terms of blood (Josh Haynes, Edwin Dewees, and so on) and open cuts, and fighters have worked through those.

The dislocated shoulder is a fight ender. It was for Manny Gamburyan on the TUF 5 finale, it was for Xande Ribeiro in Absoluto at Abu Dhabi this year. It is always a fight ender, because it is impossible to mount a sufficient defense or offense when lifting your arm is that painful.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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You're insane IronMan...everyone knows the illegal elbow ended the fight because it caused the brain to send the message to the shoulder to hurt...Jeez. How could you not make that deduction?
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:36 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
An intelligent defense means, at the very least, the fighter must be looking to escape the position instead of just "weather the storm." If the guy's not even showing that he's looking for a way out, then it's hard to justify an "intelligent defense."

He could've been completely out, like Schaub, just staring at the lights. Instead, he tried to minimize some of the damage by covering, but he made no attempt to control




That's a crappy defense.

If the nose is going to be the reason to end the fight, the referee can't make that decision. The medical professional has to be the one to make that call on behalf of the fighter.

Hamill's reason for why he couldn't continue was the one that ended the fight. It's the only one that matters when it comes to reevaluating the call by Mazzagatti, because it is what lead directly to the end of the fight.

If Mazzagatti had actually done his job (stop the fight, wait for input for the doctors before issuing either a deduction or a DQ), there might be some room to defend his actions, but I think it's clear that if Hamill had just suffered the nose injury, he probably could've continued fighting. We've all seen worse in terms of blood (Josh Haynes, Edwin Dewees, and so on) and open cuts, and fighters have worked through those.

The dislocated shoulder is a fight ender. It was for Manny Gamburyan on the TUF 5 finale, it was for Xande Ribeiro in Absoluto at Abu Dhabi this year. It is always a fight ender, because it is impossible to mount a sufficient defense or offense when lifting your arm is that painful.
Just point of fact, the referee is fully vested to make the determination whether a fighter is able to continue, no doctor is required for that. He may, if he wishes, call the doctor in to evaluate the injury but that is not required to stop a fight (or deduct a point or DQ).
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:43 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mma_official View Post
Just point of fact, the referee is fully vested to make the determination whether a fighter is able to continue, no doctor is required for that. He may, if he wishes, call the doctor in to evaluate the injury but that is not required to stop a fight (or deduct a point or DQ).
Not this one.
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mma_official View Post
Just point of fact, the referee is fully vested to make the determination whether a fighter is able to continue, no doctor is required for that. He may, if he wishes, call the doctor in to evaluate the injury but that is not required to stop a fight (or deduct a point or DQ).
He's entitled to stop a fight if the fighter is "unable to continue." But it is considered by the commission (and should be) very unseemly to stop the fight due to a cut without consulting the physician.

Of course, Mazzagatti didn't stop the fight because of the cut (which was caused by the elbow).

He stopped the fight because of Hamill stated that he could no longer continue (because of his arm, which was absolutely not caused by the elbow).

Mazzagatti was perfectly within his power to stop the fight. I'm glad he stopped the fight.

However, he's not entitled to declare the fight a DQ win for Matt Hamill without a justification that the injury which ended the fight was caused by an illegal strike (which it clearly wasn't).

I'm annoyed with this, because I've already made this argument in a handful of individual posts on this thread (as well as in the initial article) and you clearly didn't read it before commenting.
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