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Old 07-23-2011, 08:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Defense vs knife + hold?

Hello,

I am a brown belt Ju Jitsuka and have been training Ju Jitsu for six years now.

I would like to know what could be done against this attack:

- attacker is standing in front of you, very close. He is threatening you by holding the right collar of your jacket with his left hand (the usual grab) and with his right hand he is holding his knife against your middle (waist/belly button area).

Today my sensei (8th dan) and us have tried to come up with something against that, but it seems very difficult to have a chance against this threat. This is because the guy with a knife is very flexible.

What he attacker can do is:

- let go of the collar grab and go over your defending arm with a stabbing knife
- defend with his left arm all the time while having his knife ready for stabbing in his right hand
- shake you back and forth with his left arm grabbing your collar while he has a good chance of keep stabbing you with the right hand

So.. I don't know.

Any ideas against this threat are welcome.
If anyone wishes pictures, I can upload some drawings of this threat.

Thank you,

--
SelfDefense
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I say give the guy your money and live to fight another day.....but if you had to do something always control the knife hand/arm never the knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEZS...eature=related

Unless you want to do some Steven Segal stuff
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yep, give him what he wants if he already has the drop on you,
If thats not a option then like above poster said, control the knife arm/hand and then plant your head on his nose.imo
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, that is if you can reach his face with your head. He will defend himself and be flexible. Of course no one knows what can happen in a fight.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I guess it depends on why he has you in that position in the first place, if he has both hands in use and is confident he is in control he wont protect his face.It also kinda boils down to is he willing to stick you, If he has no problem cutting you, you are better off making a move, if he is bluffing he probably wont cut you no matter what..
I assume this is just a hypothetical with no good answer, there are knife fighting/self defence videos that probaby have better answers from people who have been in that situation.. I have never been in that exact spot so I cant say for sure... Good luck though...
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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First of all, there is more to that knife defense issue than you could ever get from people in the internet, so you will at best get a small idea of what you could do or how you could train.

I've posted something about knife confrontation in another thread.

So, concerning your premises (I hope I've got a correct picture of the situation in my mind as I'm not a native speaker): If you can't run (which should be your primary approach in all weapon encounters) do as the others already have told - give him what he wants. Neither your wallet nor your iPod is worth your life! Most people underestimate how dangerous a knife can be and what it can do to them. They usually know at worst a cut in their finger with a kitchen knife which slipped while preparing their meal, but this is nothing compared to an intentional knife attack. An acquaintance of a very good friend of mine got stabbed not long ago with a knife and was in coma for more than a month, but at least was lucky enough to survive (the attacker missed his heart by half an inch). In the following videos you can get an idea of what might happen to your body if someone attacks you with a knife.




So again, if you can't run away, give him your money, mobile, iPad what ever IF it looks like that that's what he is after. There is a pretty good chance that he won't harm you if he didn't attack you in the first place, but only threatened you to give him your stuff. Of course that will never be a 100% chance and you need some good empathy to judge how he will react after you've given him what he wanted.

IF however you have the strong feeling that he's seriously going to harm you even if you do what he asks - then you must defend yourself at full force. Grab his knife arm with BOTH of your hands. I say at forearm at elbow level, because that part he can't move as fast as his hands, so it will be harder for him to avoid to get grabbed. Going for his wrist however will give you more control over where the knife actually is. Try out in training what is most comfortable for you. There are people who don't recommend to go with both your hands, using the argument that he would attack you with your free hand, but arguments and also my own experience strongly advocates using both your hands on the attackers knife arm.
- The knife is the biggest threat in that moment! Using only one hand on the knife arm and your second hand on his other arm will not only put a smaller force against the biggest threat, but most likely have you also using your strong hand (right) against his weak hand (left) and your weak hand (left) against hist strong hand (right) which makes it easier for him to keep his knife free and attack you with it.
- Someone who is not trained in knife fighting will usually be absolutely focused only on his knife. That means that he probably won't really attack you with his free hand, but rather go with it for your grabbing arms to get his knife free. You can try that out in training.

My advises here are for a training against attackers who are not highly trained in knife fighting. Against those who are, there is not much you can do in an encounter and even less you could learn from the internet. To raise your chances from zero to minimal, you will have to train with people specialized on knife fighting.

So when you have control over his knife arm you want to stomp kick on his leg, preferable his knee and inflict as much damage as you can so he won't be able to follow you when you run away if you have the possibility.

Jon Fitch does pretty well in controlling the knife arm of his opponent in this clip:


You may also try to get a copy of Jim Wagner's reality based personal protection knife defense DVD. A bigger part in the end of it is advertisement for his knife, but the training instructions part before that is pretty good.

If you can afford one, get a shock knife like in the Fitch video for your training. It lets you know every mistake you do while you practice. But you should also work with a color marker knife (a marker pen does also) and a white shirt. With that you can evaluate you training afterwards. And ask your trainer to invite some acknowledged knife fighting instructors to give seminars at your gym.


Always keep in mind that in a knife attack encounter there is NO safe way. No matter what you do, there is ALWAYS the chance that you get hurt. All your training and actions are about minimizing the risks for you and to get as little harmed out of the situation as possible. So, to sum it up:
- First priority is to run away
- If that's not possible, give your money, mobile etc.
- If the attacker is going to attack you no matter what you do, control his knife arm and inflict as much damage as you can and run away at the best opportunity
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thank you for sharing, Voiceless.

I have a few questions:
"So when you have control over his knife arm you want to stomp kick on his leg, preferable his knee and inflict as much damage as you can so he won't be able to follow you when you run away if you have the possibility."

--> What about him having pumped up adrenaline so he could still run after me, not feeling the pain? Or he could be a ferocious maniac who won't give up running after his victim until he has him?

About the shock knife, sorry but I am not that insane to go get such a weapon. I will keep training with the rounded out 'butter' knife (full flexible rubber. It bends very easily, you know the type). This way you can go full power with the knife while not being afraid to hurt the other, since knife fights happen at full speed usually. I am not going to buy a knife.

The acknowledged knife fighting instructors? I doubt they live in Europe or would do the hassle to come over to our tiny dojo. I bet they would cost a lot of money to get in.

Nevertheless, thanks for sharing.

Last edited by SelfDefense : 07-25-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
Thank you for sharing, Voiceless.

I have a few questions:
"So when you have control over his knife arm you want to stomp kick on his leg, preferable his knee and inflict as much damage as you can so he won't be able to follow you when you run away if you have the possibility."

--> What about him having pumped up adrenaline so he could still run after me, not feeling the pain? Or he could be a ferocious maniac who won't give up running after his victim until he has him?
You will always have that problem and as I said there is NO 100% safe way and there is always the possibility that you get hurt, in particular if the attacker actually IS stronger than you. But concerning the running of him after you, that why you should inflict damage and attack his knee or ankle, because damage there does not only causes pain, but reduces the function of the joints. Without those joints working functionally any more he just CAN'T run after you, even though he would overcome the pain due to adrenaline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
About the shock knife, sorry but I am not that insane to go get such a weapon. I will keep training with the rounded out 'butter' knife (full flexible rubber. It bends very easily, you know the type). This way you can go full power with the knife while not being afraid to hurt the other, since knife fights happen at full speed usually. I am not going to buy a knife.
The shock knife is not really a "weapon", it's a training device that simulates a knife. You can inform yourself about it on their website. But as I wrote, I don't recommend only a single knife training device, but several like shock knife to get instant cutting feedback, marker knifes for evaluation and rubber knifes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
The acknowledged knife fighting instructors? I doubt they live in Europe or would do the hassle to come over to our tiny dojo. I bet they would cost a lot of money to get in.
In Europe (more precise in Germany) you could find Uli Weidl who is Europe chief instructor of Pekiti Tirsia Kali under Leo Gaje who is one of the (maybe the) main instructors in knife fighting for the Philippine army.
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Voiceless, what do you think of the following scenarios:

1) Standing in front of a knife guy, pushing yourself off of him (chest), take a big step (3 ft) and face opposite direction, running moderately and controlled. If he tries to run after you and you have created enough distance, you will simply elephant-stomp him in the stomach (small elephants are known to give sort of a backwards kick and it can be deadly). In other words, a straight backwards kick. Why this approach? Well, our sensei has developed this new method. He says "this way, the attacker can't get close enough to me. He can't grab me because my leg will be kicking him and he will cripple to the floor from the kick. He would have to get close enough to be able to grab me, but he can't, because my leg is protecting me with the backwards kick." This approach worked for one of our club members who got ran after by a drunk guy. He kicked him in the stomach with the backward kick and they had to carry the guy away back to the bar. Of course this works for a drunk, fighting-ignorant guy, but for a vicious trained maniac.. I doubt it. This is why our sensei and us are always open to opinions from the outside. Do you think this would be a good approach? My opinion is that there might be a problem with the guy cutting one of your leg arteries.. I don't know.

2) You are standing in front of the knife attacker and just all of a sudden, you run backwards, but with fast great steps, still facing him. After those steps you run the hell away. Supposedly the attacker would be that dumb that he would be surprised for that second that you take steps back. He would be like "huh?" in his mind and that would supposedly be enough for you to get the hell away.

So, let me know what you think about these approaches.

Thanks
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'd just avoid this situation. Unless you're in a crowded room etc it's going to be hard for a guy to get me in this situation. But let's assume I'm there, two things come to mind immediately 1. Control his knife hand, break his hold with headbutts or right hooks, push off him pull firearm and shoot until he dies. 2. Control knife hand, pull firearm with other hand and fire close range. If I find myself in this situation without a firearm I'd probably fight for control of the knife, 1st thing would be to control the knife, punches, groin strikes, eye gouges if I could get the knife all the way to the side I'd try to take the guy down and if I got him down that's where I'd kill him and if not I'd chase his ass down and end him where ever. End of the day he pulled a knife on me and he's gotta die. I can't help but think next time it would be my wife and child with that knife on them or my mom. Don't get me wrong I'll give a guy a ride, hot meal and 20$ if asked but if he wants to take 5$ by force that's the only way he'll take it from me.

But for everyone else who is not so arrogant and blinded by anger, I'd say always cooperate and give him your stuff, and if they aren't going to let you go then run. An attacker with a knife is a lot more dangerous than a normal attacker. The truth is that an attacker with a knife will probably kill you in a fight.
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