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Old 10-30-2009, 10:49 AM   #241 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
TKD has and continues to evolve. It is an ever-changing art, especially when it comes to footwork. Are there a lot of crappy schools? Sure. Are some focused on kids' grades and behavior and not on true combat? Sure. Are some of the rules and techniques of sport TKD terrible for real combat? Sure. That being said, there are also many TKD schools that teach tradition, sport, and combat and their differences very well and those schools seem to have no problem producing TKD practitioners whose techniques hold up just fine in the combat department. I've personally witnessed others' success and experienced it myself.
It's an ever changing art? What have they changed major in the last 10 years? 20 years? To be honest I went to many TKD schools that many people swore by and said were "real" schools and they were all the same b.s. across the board. All I would ever get from most TKD practitioners is a lot of talk about how it can be effective on the street, but when you ask them to demonstate what's effective on the street they show you a bunch of flashy kicks and techniques that would never work in real combat.

Let me ask this...if there are some TKD schools that produce TKD guys that do just fine in combat then why are there no TKD guys in real combat sports? Where is the UFC champ that's a TKD guy? Where are they in WEC, Strikeforce, Dream, K1, King of the Cage, etc...where are all these combat ready TKD guys? I mean I would think as many TKD schools as there are across the nation (probably double any other martial art) that there would be at least a handful of guys out there doing MMA that have a pretty much straight TKD background...if it's that effective...

Don't get me wrong and think I'm coming off like a dick. I'm really not trying too. I'm just saying that you look at other martial arts like BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Karate, and even wrestling....there are guys out there fighting using those styles as their base. Where are all the TKD guys if it's as effective as most TKD guys like to think it is.

To me I feel like a lot of TKD guys want to compare them having a black belt in TKD to me having over 7 years of Muay-Thai experience and in my eyes there is no comparisson. I've never sparred with one TKD guy regardless of rank that's made it past the 1st round.
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Old 10-30-2009, 11:29 AM   #242 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BlacklistShaun View Post
It's an ever changing art? What have they changed major in the last 10 years? 20 years?
Footwork and combinations are two areas that are constantly advancing and changing. Another changing area that I think TKD is underappreciated in is timing and counterattacks.

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To be honest I went to many TKD schools that many people swore by and said were "real" schools and they were all the same b.s. across the board. All I would ever get from most TKD practitioners is a lot of talk about how it can be effective on the street, but when you ask them to demonstate what's effective on the street they show you a bunch of flashy kicks and techniques that would never work in real combat.
I've seen that, too, and I acknowledged it in my previous post.

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Let me ask this...if there are some TKD schools that produce TKD guys that do just fine in combat then why are there no TKD guys in real combat sports? Where is the UFC champ that's a TKD guy?

Where are they in WEC, Strikeforce, Dream, K1, King of the Cage, etc...where are all these combat ready TKD guys? I mean I would think as many TKD schools as there are across the nation (probably double any other martial art) that there would be at least a handful of guys out there doing MMA that have a pretty much straight TKD background...if it's that effective...
Dan Hardy, Mike Swick, Ben Henderson are 3 top level MMA fighters with Tae Kwon Do backgrounds that spring to mind.

Dan Hardy:
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I asked him how much of his style is attributed to the South Korean national sport.

"I would say quite a lot of it, actually. Certainly a lot of the footwork and the movement. With taekwondo being an Olympic sport, and it being based on scoring points, you have to be very quick to move in and out and score your points without getting scored on. So I think a lot of the footwork that I use, moving around the Octagon, moving into strike and then getting back out again, I think a lot of it was taken from taekwondo.

"And all the way through my career I've never really taken too many shots in fights, kind of similar to Machida, I think that's because of the footwork and the timing of throwing the strikes from traditional styles like taekwondo and karate. So it's been very useful to me. Obviously I've had to adapt a few things to suit MMA because with taekwondo it's very easy to get punched in the face and get taken down, so certain things have changed but I have taken a lot from it definitely."

"You can watch my fights. I'm always pretty light on my feet and that's from years of competing in taekwondo, especially as it became an Olympic sport the fighters I was coming up against were getting faster, so I had to adapt, but that was the point where they were just too fast."
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/wrestling-...-a-lot-of.html

For K1, there's Serkan Yilmaz:


Quote:
Don't get me wrong and think I'm coming off like a dick. I'm really not trying too. I'm just saying that you look at other martial arts like BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Karate, and even wrestling....there are guys out there fighting using those styles as their base. Where are all the TKD guys if it's as effective as most TKD guys like to think it is.
There's always been a stigma attached to combat sports in the traditional martial arts. The more committed a practitioner was to their art, the less likely they were to fight in front of a crowd for money, and in many cases, doing so would get them kicked out of their school. Plus, there's the fact that most TKD practitioners set their sight on the Olympics, not MMA. The stigma has been changing more and more, though. For example, the TKD school I used to train and teach at is also an ATT certified MMA school.

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To me I feel like a lot of TKD guys want to compare them having a black belt in TKD to me having over 7 years of Muay-Thai experience and in my eyes there is no comparisson. I've never sparred with one TKD guy regardless of rank that's made it past the 1st round.
If they were a 3rd degree black belt, the comparison would be better, but I have no idea who you've been sparring with, so I can't speak to that.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:00 PM   #243 (permalink)
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Dan Hardy, Mike Swick, Ben Henderson are 3 top level MMA fighters with Tae Kwon Do backgrounds that spring to mind.
Dan Hardy did do TKD no argument there, but he switched and started training Muay Thai and using that as his striking base. If TKD was so good why would he switch to Muay-Thai??

Mike Swick trains out of American Kickboxing Academy which does BJJ, Judo, and kickboxing. As far as Iím aware there is no one there teaching TKD. If you know of a TKD instructor that is teaching TKD at AKA then please share your information.

Ben Henderson is a wrestler. He does have a black belt in TKD, but thatís not that hard since most schools pretty much give them out. If you go look at where he trains and how he trains he relies on his wrestling more than anything.

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There's always been a stigma attached to combat sports in the traditional martial arts. The more committed a practitioner was to their art, the less likely they were to fight in front of a crowd for money,
So you are saying that the guys who do compete in combat sports, in front of crowds, for money are less dedicated to martial arts than people who donít? I would think just the opposite actuallyÖ

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in many cases, doing so would get them kicked out of their school.
I have been to many TKD schools and most of them didnít want any of their students competing anywhere. A couple of them told me they didnít want them competing against any other martial art except TKD so I lied and told them I had done TKD before. In all cases of those schools I found out real fast why they didnít not want them going out competing, especially against other martial artsÖbecause they would have immediately left and went elsewhere. As a matter of fact there was one school I went too that was issued an invitation to a local Shotokan Karate club tournament. The instructor at the TKD school told his students that anyone who went would be kicked outÖI wondered why. A few of the students didnít care and went anyhowÖthey got their asses handed to them.

Iím not trying to say that all schools that tell you not to compete suck, but a lot of them donít want people competing for the strict fact that they want to retain students and keep them from going to better schools/arts.

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For example, the TKD school I used to train and teach at is also an ATT certified MMA school.
You were at a TKD school that was certified by American Top Team??? I am going to have to call b.s. on that my friend. What was the name of the school and Iíll ask Liborio personally if the school was certified under ATT.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:13 PM   #244 (permalink)
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Keep in mind Shaun, that TKD is a relatively new sport in this country, only having been practiced for about 60-70 years. In the grand scheme of martial arts developing, this is the blink of an eye.

My hope is that schools like the one I trained at, which taught boxing and ground fighting along with TKD, and focused more on techniques which better lent themselves to combat, are the shape of things to come.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:44 PM   #245 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BlacklistShaun View Post
Dan Hardy did do TKD no argument there, but he switched and started training Muay Thai and using that as his striking base. If TKD was so good why would he switch to Muay-Thai??
Read his own comments on TKD again if you need to. I can't speak for him.

Quote:
Mike Swick trains out of American Kickboxing Academy which does BJJ, Judo, and kickboxing. As far as I’m aware there is no one there teaching TKD. If you know of a TKD instructor that is teaching TKD at AKA then please share your information.
You seem to be moving the goalpost here. Swick has a TKD background, as I said. I did not say he trained TKD instead of MMA today.

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Ben Henderson is a wrestler. He does have a black belt in TKD, but that’s not that hard since most schools pretty much give them out. If you go look at where he trains and how he trains he relies on his wrestling more than anything.
Again, not particularly relevant to what you asked for. Henderson has a TKD background, and both he and announcers have acknowledged the difference in his kicks and footwork due to that training.


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So you are saying that the guys who do compete in combat sports, in front of crowds, for money are less dedicated to martial arts than people who don’t? I would think just the opposite actually…
I certainly didn't say that. I did however, acknowledge the stigma that exists in traditional martial arts and its role in keeping the best representatives of those art from professional fighting. Acknowledging something isn't agreeing with it.

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I have been to many TKD schools and most of them didn’t want any of their students competing anywhere. A couple of them told me they didn’t want them competing against any other martial art except TKD
Yes, that's what I said was the case.
Quote:
so I lied and told them I had done TKD before.
Are you lying now?
Quote:
In all cases of those schools I found out real fast why they didn’t not want them going out competing, especially against other martial arts…because they would have immediately left and went elsewhere. As a matter of fact there was one school I went too that was issued an invitation to a local Shotokan Karate club tournament. The instructor at the TKD school told his students that anyone who went would be kicked out…I wondered why. A few of the students didn’t care and went anyhow…they got their asses handed to them.
Obviously, no TKD schools or practitioners could ever be any different than what you, personally, have experienced, so forget everything I've said.

Quote:
I’m not trying to say that all schools that tell you not to compete suck, but a lot of them don’t want people competing for the strict fact that they want to retain students and keep them from going to better schools/arts.
I believe I acknowledged that element in my first comment a few posts back.

Quote:
You were at a TKD school that was certified by American Top Team??? I am going to have to call b.s. on that my friend. What was the name of the school and I’ll ask Liborio personally if the school was certified under ATT.
It seems there are currently 8 ATT certified TKD schools. I can only vouch for Southeast Texas TKD, though:
http://www.americantopteam.com/locations.php
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That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.

Last edited by jasvll : 10-30-2009 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:46 PM   #246 (permalink)
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I have a Black in Tae Kwon Do and I would say Muay Thai....
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:52 PM   #247 (permalink)
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Fly me up a MT instructor then, because the Western kickboxing class I take, while it is related, does not cover the finer points of MT.

Since I have broadened my study of martial arts, I have been trying to develop a more trained eye with regard to which techniques are more useful for combat. It is harder and more subjective than I thought it would be.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:52 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by coldcall420 View Post
I have a Black in Tae Kwon Do and I would say Muay Thai....
Just a general programming reminder, I'm not arguing that TKD is a superior art to Muay Thai.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:10 PM   #249 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Just a general programming reminder, I'm not arguing that TKD is a superior art to Muay Thai.


I just read the thread title and posted in it for the 1st time without reading a single post......

Not sure if I could have sounded like I was jumping into a discussion, moreover I just randomly posted my opinion......

Havent seen ya for a while Jasvll......
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:55 PM   #250 (permalink)
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I just read the thread title and posted in it for the 1st time without reading a single post......

Not sure if I could have sounded like I was jumping into a discussion, moreover I just randomly posted my opinion......
I figured, I was just using your post as a launching point for my programming reminder.
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Havent seen ya for a while Jasvll......
I've been waiting for the right time to strike.
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