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Muay Thai or TKD

51K views 274 replies 71 participants last post by  Spirion1 
#1 ·
I'm having an arguement with a guy on youtube who thinks Muay Thai sucks compared to tae kwon do. I think that the simple lack of protecting your face in TKD says it all. Tell me what you think is better
 
#52 ·
southpaw447 said:
I'm having an arguement with a guy on youtube who thinks Muay Thai sucks compared to tae kwon do. I think that the simple lack of protecting your face in TKD says it all. Tell me what you think is better
well that guy is a fuckin' idiot ask him if he's ever seen ramon dekkers fight. tkd, please.. nobody is gonna brinng that into mma and win. now some good muay thai fighters have been known to fair well in mma, anderson silva, wanderlei silva, granted they know bjj also but their background is muay thai.
 
#53 ·
lets have an actual discussion

taadland said:
well that guy is a fuckin' idiot ask him if he's ever seen ramon dekkers fight. tkd, please.. nobody is gonna brinng that into mma and win. now some good muay thai fighters have been known to fair well in mma, anderson silva, wanderlei silva, granted they know bjj also but their background is muay thai.
Did actually read your way through this topic or check out the first post then throw in your own opinion? Can you give some reasons why you believe that TKD can never be used in MMA? Personally, I've practiced TKD for a while before my endeavors as a Mixed Martial Artist, and I believe I could debate what you have to say. The same goes to you, Super Fudge. Rather than just stating your opinion, let's hear some reasons.
 
#55 · (Edited)
Kin said:
Did actually read your way through this topic or check out the first post then throw in your own opinion? Can you give some reasons why you believe that TKD can never be used in MMA? Personally, I've practiced TKD for a while before my endeavors as a Mixed Martial Artist, and I believe I could debate what you have to say. The same goes to you, Super Fudge. Rather than just stating your opinion, let's hear some reasons.
no actually i didn't read any of the other posts, just the topic..and all i have is one reason...HAVE YOU EVER SEEN RAMON DEKKERS FIGHTS? come on man. plus the question was TKD or Muay Thai, it's just a throw in that TKD won't work in MMA. what's your reasons that it can be used cause i've got to believe you're one of the very very few that actually believe that bullshit. and name one fighter in mma that states their fighting style as TKD, they would be the laughed at and humiliated. and you list your fav. fighter as anderson silva, a muay thai fighter so i would beleive you're just tryin' to spark more intellegence from me, and all i gotta say again is RAMON DEKKERS.
 
#56 ·
Super Fudge said:
Is this debate really happening? Are there really people in this world foolish enough to believe that TKD is even in the same league of effectiveness as MT?

Somebody posted earlier that TKD was for pre-teen girls who's parents wouldn't let them take anything where they could get hurt and I couldn't agree more. TKD in a real fight is laughably ineffective, along with most of the traditional martial arts. I'm not saying they dont have their place but combat sports and street fights are definitely not it.
i will argee that TKD is less effective than muay thai in an MMA fight but to say that it is useless altogther just shows your ignorance i believe muay thai is more effective than boxing in MMA as well but does that make boxing a sport suitable only for little girls?

there are many kicks in tkd that can be applied in mma as a whole it is not as effective but then again neither is boxing or muay thai its about the whole package
 
#57 ·
Super Fudge said:
Is this debate really happening? Are there really people in this world foolish enough to believe that TKD is even in the same league of effectiveness as MT?

Somebody posted earlier that TKD was for pre-teen girls who's parents wouldn't let them take anything where they could get hurt and I couldn't agree more. TKD in a real fight is laughably ineffective, along with most of the traditional martial arts. I'm not saying they dont have their place but combat sports and street fights are definitely not it.
It's not in the same league. it's true that traditional martial arts would not be much help to you on the street. however when taught along with boxing and ground fighting techniques, it can be. Suggesting that it's for preteen girls who don't want to get hurt is bullshit. Any sport where you can get punched or kicked in the head, you can get hurt.
 
#58 ·
aznmaniac0909 said:
i will argee that TKD is less effective than muay thai in an MMA fight but to say that it is useless altogther just shows your ignorance i believe muay thai is more effective than boxing in MMA as well but does that make boxing a sport suitable only for little girls?

there are many kicks in tkd that can be applied in mma as a whole it is not as effective but then again neither is boxing or muay thai its about the whole package
agreed
 
#59 ·
taadland said:
no actually i didn't read any of the other posts, just the topic..and all i have is one reason...HAVE YOU EVER SEEN RAMON DEKKERS FIGHTS? come on man. plus the question was TKD or Muay Thai, it's just a throw in that TKD won't work in MMA. what's your reasons that it can be used cause i've got to believe you're one of the very very few that actually believe that bullshit. and name one fighter in mma that states their fighting style as TKD, they would be the laughed at and humiliated. and you list your fav. fighter as anderson silva, a muay thai fighter so i would beleive you're just tryin' to spark more intellegence from me, and all i gotta say again is RAMON DEKKERS.
Well, I don't care if you throw names around. It means absolutely nothing to me. I'm asking you for technical reasons for why you believe that it can't work. And keep in mind that, just because something hasn't worked as of late, doesn't mean that it never can. I want to hear specific reasons, because I'm an actual practitioner of martial arts. And as such, I like to discuss the techniques. If I was talking about *****, and someone says "it's good 'cause...well look at Fedor!!!" ... Well, while I do agree that he uses it very well, that isn't enough for me.

Anyway, I wouldn't argue that TKD is more effective than Muay Thai simply because it doesn't practice clinch fighting. If not for that, I don't believe that a good TKD fighter would be utterly screwed against a Muay Thai practitioner. Well...that and conditioning. But again, I ask that you supply legitimate reasons. In fact, I challenge you to respond without saying the name 'Ramon Dekker.'
 
#60 ·
Kin said:
Well, I don't care if you throw names around. It means absolutely nothing to me. I'm asking you for technical reasons for why you believe that it can't work. And keep in mind that, just because something hasn't worked as of late, doesn't mean that it never can. I want to hear specific reasons, because I'm an actual practitioner of martial arts. And as such, I like to discuss the techniques. If I was talking about *****, and someone says "it's good 'cause...well look at Fedor!!!" ... Well, while I do agree that he uses it very well, that isn't enough for me.

Anyway, I wouldn't argue that TKD is more effective than Muay Thai simply because it doesn't practice clinch fighting. If not for that, I don't believe that a good TKD fighter would be utterly screwed against a Muay Thai practitioner. Well...that and conditioning. But again, I ask that you supply legitimate reasons. In fact, I challenge you to respond without saying the name 'Ramon Dekker.'
MT also has utilizes elbows and knees(don't have to be in clinch to use all knees)and their amazingly strong kicks. I'm sure TKD has some good ones too but MT kicks are just so dang strong and powerful. Yeah, their conditioning is off the chart. It's killing me trying to keep up with some of those guys. AND they're in their mid 40's. Damn, I hate admitting that. :)
 
#61 ·
I've practiced Karate (blackbelt) and TKD (redbelt) and some of the techniques can be useful in MMA competition and a street fight. Someone stated and I wish I quoted it, that MT kicks are so awesomely powerful, they are off the charts........have you ever gotten kicked by a TKD practitioner other than a wht, yellow or orange belt????? I've got some strong kicks myself. Now, truth be told I wouldn't use a spinning hook, a jump side kick or anything fancy in an MMA fight or a street fight......save those flashy kicks for forms and the movies! I do however use low leg kicks and of course a nice snappy roudhouse to the mid section! My TKD training is useful to me.....I use the kicks for the most part. Blocking your face is important and I believe that comes from training. I don't think that any TKD instructors would purposely decide not to teach how to block the face, although in point sparring you don't have to worry much because contact to the face is frowned upon! I think it all comes down to how you train and for what. I'm sure if a person who only took TKD decided to get into MMA he sure better be great at it or learn bjj or something! I don't think a TKD practitioner could be solid in the cage if he only depended on TKD. Me, I've moved on to bjj and MMA training!!!!!!
 
#64 ·
TheNegation said:
Not even worth debating.
How many mma fighters use TKD, compared to muay thai?
Theres your answer.

MMA is still in its infancy. Just 'cause something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it never will. Regardless, I'm so sick an tired of people who can't back their stance. Statements like "not even worth debating" would make me think that you wouldn't be able to do a decent job debating it -- even if you did find it 'worth your while.'

To address some things that js9234 mentioned... Elbows and knees. At the place where I took TKD, these were practiced to a degree -- admittedly, far less than they would be at MT place. However, these things are most useful in the clinch, and are relatively easy to defend against when NOT in the clinch. In my personal opinion, the excellent clinch work is what really separates Muay Thai from alot of other striking martial arts. As for the power of the kicks, TKDs method is very similar except for the fact that MT excludes the chambering of the leg during roundhouse kicks. Where they generate most of the power from is the torquing of the shoulders, which carries the same motion over to hips... which then channels power through the legs, etc etc. Back when I was doing TKD, for power roundhouses we were also taught to perform that turning of the shoulders and hips to create a whip-like motion. Once again...the main difference was the chamber of lack of it. However, in TKD point sparring, alot of practitioners get lazy and exclude components of techniques which add power. That is a problem that afflicts practically every martial arts that does point sparring.


In the end, it really comes down to how you train. If for some reason, a Muay Thai place did excessive point-sparring I bet they'd be pretty craptacular. And at the same time, there are some TKD places that work very hard on conditioning. Though, an advantage that Muay Thai does have over traditional martial arts, is that its a sport. In a sport, there's no time to practice forms and stuff. Full attention is put upon getting good at the actual game. And because of that, while alot of traditional arts have the potential, they aren't practiced in a manner that is fitting for MMA competition.

Oh, and by the way Dragonfury72BJJ, I do agree with you that TKD can't hold its own in MMA by itself. But then again, what art can? Can pure MT hold its own? Nope. Can pure BJJ? Nope. Thus is the beauty of MMA.
 
#65 ·
Okay, bottom line: it all comes down to how you train.
In fact, you don't need to follow any style to be good at fighting (particularly for sport MMA). All you have to do is train your natural weapons and learn how to utilize them.
That's called the art of "fighting".

Here's a suggestion: forget that you're learning a certain style. Just know that you're learning how to fight, and you'll have to train every part of your body, every natural weapon you possess, so that you can do whatever you have to do to survive a fight.

It's really as simple as that.
 
#66 · (Edited)
No, mma is not in it's infancy. It didn't start with UFC.
TKD has had half a century to prove itself and has largely failed to do so.
I did TKD for two years. As a fighting style, it is innaffective. If it was useful in MMA, it would be used, but it isn't. Try me, I love a good debate, and I have trained in both Muay thai and TKD.
But you can't prove TKD works in MMA as a style, as awhole, because it hasn't.

Edit: And it does have more to do with the way you train than the art you train in.
 
#67 ·
TheNegation said:
But you can't prove TKD works in MMA as a style, as awhole, because it hasn't.

Edit: And it does have more to do with the way you train than the art you train in.
As it is, the purist contests of "style vs style" don't exist anymore. In that regards, you cannot prove that any style works in MMA "as a whole." I also don't see how anyone can say a powerfully thrown kick isn't effective.

Now if you're playing a numbers game, then you can clearly lay out the styles that are more prevalent. But the funny thing about the whole "TMA vs X-Style," is that all of the styles begin to dissolve once they start getting mixed up. In that regard, it ultimately ends up being about the fighters. Your disclaimer at the end is proof of this.

Here's the thing... Once everything is distilled down into its purist form, it becomes about the fighter and how they train their techniques. Taking that into account, people will train differently depending on what their intentions are. A collegiate wrestler is going to train his wrestling techniques differently for MMA than he would for the NCAA. It's the same reason why amateur boxers will usually find new coaches if they turn pro, as the pro boxing game is very different. It's also the same reason why BJJ train Submission Wrestling (no gi) and adjust their grappling to MMA as getting punched in the face changes the ground game drastically.

But to blatantly claim that any style that will help develope skills in one area or another of combat is "useless" is grossly ignorant. It's like saying boxing is useless to MMA because it only teaches you how to punch.

On a side note: For as bad as the decades old trend of "McDojos" in the more "traditional" Martial Arts is, the same thing is happening in rapid fashion with both BJJ and MT also. Need proof? I find the Blue Belt program pricing outling here on this page of the Gracie Academy website a little disheartening. But what can you expect when you make your living off of enrollment fees and people don't stick around because they don't get their belts as fast as ABC Dojo?
 
#68 ·
TheNegation said:
No, mma is not in it's infancy. It didn't start with UFC.
TKD has had half a century to prove itself and has largely failed to do so.
I did TKD for two years. As a fighting style, it is innaffective. If it was useful in MMA, it would be used, but it isn't. Try me, I love a good debate, and I have trained in both Muay thai and TKD.
But you can't prove TKD works in MMA as a style, as awhole, because it hasn't.

Edit: And it does have more to do with the way you train than the art you train in.
It's not in its infancy? You'll have to enlighten me on that one. I'll refrain from certain commentary until I'm clear on what you mean by that.

You say that TKD doesn't work in MMA as a whole? Well, as I mentioned earlier, there's hardly a single art thats well equipt to stand alone in a sport such as MMA. However, there are techniques from pretty much every martial art that is effective, and you have to sift those out from the ineffective. Essentially, what you are as a fighter is determined by how you utilize the techniques you know. Even if you take the six effective techniques from TKD, modify it for your environment, and learn some grappling... If you succeed, you can call yourself a TKD fighter.

* Edited for many typos
 
#69 ·
Well, MMA the sport, the fighting style, which is now what we see when we tune into 'Mixed Martial Arts' competitions
has come about in the recently, but the concept of no holds barred fighting, vale tudo matches etc. are not.
So MMA the fighting style is in it's infancy, but thats not what I was talking about, which couldhavebeen confusing.
I mean when TKD was tested against other martial arts in these competitions it did poorly. As a striking art, well it is miles behind Muay thai.
And what six effective techniques from TKD? So take three different punches, three different kicks from TKD, walk into a match and then put your opponent in an armbar, are you gonna say ''My victory is down to my TKD training!'
Well, what was the point of styles in the first place?
They weren't excluding techniques for a laugh, they did it because they thought other techniques were inneffective.
Styles are methodsof fighting, some have provenmore effective in actual combatthan others, and TKD is not one.
 
#70 ·
TheNegation said:
Well, MMA the sport, the fighting style, which is now what we see when we tune into 'Mixed Martial Arts' competitions
has come about in the recently, but the concept of no holds barred fighting, vale tudo matches etc. are not.
So MMA the fighting style is in it's infancy, but thats not what I was talking about, which couldhavebeen confusing.
I mean when TKD was tested against other martial arts in these competitions it did poorly. As a striking art, well it is miles behind Muay thai.
And what six effective techniques from TKD? So take three different punches, three different kicks from TKD, walk into a match and then put your opponent in an armbar, are you gonna say ''My victory is down to my TKD training!'
Well, what was the point of styles in the first place?
They weren't excluding techniques for a laugh, they did it because they thought other techniques were inneffective.
Styles are methodsof fighting, some have provenmore effective in actual combatthan others, and TKD is not one.
It's true that no holds barred fighting has been around for a while, but I'd find it hard to argue that it hasn't grown leaps and bounds since the arrival of modern day MMA. No one from the olden days of vale tudo could compare with the athletes of today, simply because everyone is so much more well rounded.

In the example you gave about taking six striking techniques and seizing victory by armbar... Well, I'd say that the practitioners striking experience (TKD in this case) aided him in evading blows and closing the distance to bring the fight to the range that he apparently desired. I mean, just if I were a BJJ stylist and I managed to defend against a flurry of strikes only to end the match with a submission, I would assign credit to where its due. My grappling skills was the offense, and my striking skill was the defense. Any win that I'd achieve, I would credit it to every applicable technique that I had applied in the match.

Admittedly, TKD doesn't tend to do well against other striking styles. However, I would attribute that to how they train more than the style itself. There is nothing inherently wrong with it. However, most who wield it do a poor job. It's like a boxer who throws straight punches from really close, and throws hooks from a distance. He has the tools, he's just using them wrong.

A counter arguement that I would expect to arise would be that TKD practitioners in general tend to utilize their techniques poorly. That is unfortunately the result of its evolution as a sport. Karate has gone that way as well, despite the fact that there's not much inherently wrong about it. I guarantee you that, if Muay Thai became afflicted with the same circumstances, it too would become victim to charlatans who would tarnish it for the sake of money.

An advantage MT has in this case is that there is no belt system. The curse of the belt has played a major part in the downfall of traditional martial arts. Say MT had reached the levels of popularity that TKD and Karate had achieved. Now also, lets say that MT had a belt system.

People would flock to instructors, hoping to learn how to fight just like their favorite Muay Thai film stars. However, coming face to face with the sometimes grueling hardships and discipline involved with hard training, many would drop out. Instructors would find it difficult to maintain their gyms without students to pay for it. So, some clever businessman would start a buy-a-belt dojo, where everything would be toned down. The sparring would be lighter and more bearable to the average shmuck hoping for an easy belt. Standards for competency would drop for the sake of dispensing belts to assure students of possibly undeserved progress. And that would sell.

Flash forward several generations, everyone wants to do MT -- master it quickly, and with little difficulty. They would further warp the sparring environment for the sake of participant comfort. Perhaps get rid of free sparring altogether, and just apply a 'first-touch' point system. Then, because dealing actual damage would no longer be a factor, techniques would change to meet the circumstances. Why bother with a full out roundhouse? Its so slow compared to a simply flick of the leg, and so obsolete in a 'first-touch' environment.

Next thing you know, everyone on youtube is like "MT IZ A JOKE Y DO U LZRS DO MOO TAI WIT ITZ FLIPPY KICKZ?"

So, despite the fact that MT was solid at its core, the changes made to suit the lazy consumer would warp it into pure junk.

I only bring up with hypothetical situation, because I realized that when most people refer to TKD, they have olympic bull**** in mind. They're painfully unaware of how TKD had been modified, and consequently weakened.

My main arguement would be about how one can simply take certain techniques from any art and utilize them effectively. However, if one has little reference to real TKD, they probably couldn't even see any such techniques within the style regardless.
 
#73 ·
No. Thats all I have to say to your arguement. You cannot take six techniques from a certain style and say you are practising that style.
TKD is more than six techniques. Its a way of fighting, of throwing punches and kicks, blocking punches and kicks and evading punches and kisks, and it is an ineffective way, as proven by most people who stepped into competitions with it.
A more effective fighting art is Muay Thai.
''TKD practitioners in general tend to utilize their techniques poorly'' TKD in general has poor techniques.

You don't put time and effort to train in a certain style only to take a acouple punches and kicks from it, thatwould be a complete waste of time.

''MT IZ A JOKE Y DO U LZRS DO MOO TAI WIT ITZ FLIPPY KICKZ?"
TKD didn't evolveinto having flippy kicks, it always had them.
 
#74 ·
TheNegation said:
No. Thats all I have to say to your arguement. You cannot take six techniques from a certain style and say you are practising that style.
TKD is more than six techniques. Its a way of fighting, of throwing punches and kicks, blocking punches and kicks and evading punches and kisks, and it is an ineffective way, as proven by most people who stepped into competitions with it.
A more effective fighting art is Muay Thai.
''TKD practitioners in general tend to utilize their techniques poorly'' TKD in general has poor techniques.

You don't put time and effort to train in a certain style only to take a acouple punches and kicks from it, thatwould be a complete waste of time.

''MT IZ A JOKE Y DO U LZRS DO MOO TAI WIT ITZ FLIPPY KICKZ?"
TKD didn't evolveinto having flippy kicks, it always had them.
You say that its a waste of time to only take away certain techniques from a style. I'd disagree. From most styles, there are adjustments that must be made regardless. In the world of mix martial arts, sifting through techniques is exactly what you do. Every style is modified to fit the cage, and every style has aspects that doesn't work in an MMA environment so it is removed.

Anyways, I find it funny when people say that TKD has intrinsically poor techniques. The specific ones that I kept from it are the jab, cross punch, hook, uppercut, roundhouse kick, front kick, and sidekick. Those are poor techniques? The listed punches are the staple of boxing. And few would argue that those kicks dont have a place somewhere in MMA.

And contrary to popular misconception, TKD didn't always have 'flippy kicks.' Back when I practiced it, I had been taught powerful kicks. And I had also been warned about the tournament variations of said techniques, which are basically flicks of the leg.

I mean, I hate to burst people's bubbles but... properly distributing weight to give their punches/kicks power is a pretty wide-spread principal. I'd be skeptical to think that the Koreans couldn't figure it out.

Also, I believe its possible that some people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I wouldn't, by any means, argue that TKD is its own self-sufficient style (not that any style is). I, however, am just saying that its unmodified techniques are hardly different from other striking arts I've seen/practiced. It's just applied poorly.
 
#75 ·
Thats not what I mean. Take mefor example. Ihavehad boxing classes. I can box, and do, in fights.
But I wouldnever call myselfaboxer, cos I train primarily in submission wrestling and muay thai. I did boxing to improve my boxing, but jus cos I throw punches doesn't make me a boxer.
Just as taking a couple techniques from TKD and using other styles when you fight more often than your TKD arsenal means you are not representing TKD.
 
#76 ·
TheNegation said:
Thats not what I mean. Take mefor example. Ihavehad boxing classes. I can box, and do, in fights.
But I wouldnever call myselfaboxer, cos I train primarily in submission wrestling and muay thai. I did boxing to improve my boxing, but jus cos I throw punches doesn't make me a boxer.
Just as taking a couple techniques from TKD and using other styles when you fight more often than your TKD arsenal means you are not representing TKD.
I will concede to that point. Though, personally, I credit every style that I've practiced -- as it has done something for me. This is also because I feel like I use what I've learned in different styles in equal frequency. I use footwork and striking from TKD and boxing as I use judo and kickboxing for clinch work, and judo + submission wrestling on the ground.
 
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