Muay Thai or TKD - Page 8 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
Muay Thai Kickboxing Discuss Muay Thai Kickboxing technique, training, equipment and videos!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #71 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 04:38 AM
Amatuer
 
taadland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 118
 
kins a bitch.. yep i said it.
taadland is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #72 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 07:05 AM
Kin
MMA fighter
 
Kin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 649
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by taadland
kins a bitch.. yep i said it.
Well, at least I'm not some forum warrior hangin from Ramon Dekkers nutsack, who drops a name and pretends it's an arguement.
Kin is offline  
post #73 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 07:53 AM
Banned
 
TheNegation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,809
                     
No. Thats all I have to say to your arguement. You cannot take six techniques from a certain style and say you are practising that style.
TKD is more than six techniques. Its a way of fighting, of throwing punches and kicks, blocking punches and kicks and evading punches and kisks, and it is an ineffective way, as proven by most people who stepped into competitions with it.
A more effective fighting art is Muay Thai.
''TKD practitioners in general tend to utilize their techniques poorly'' TKD in general has poor techniques.

You don't put time and effort to train in a certain style only to take a acouple punches and kicks from it, thatwould be a complete waste of time.

''MT IZ A JOKE Y DO U LZRS DO MOO TAI WIT ITZ FLIPPY KICKZ?"
TKD didn't evolveinto having flippy kicks, it always had them.
TheNegation is offline  
post #74 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 02:23 PM
Kin
MMA fighter
 
Kin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 649
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNegation
No. Thats all I have to say to your arguement. You cannot take six techniques from a certain style and say you are practising that style.
TKD is more than six techniques. Its a way of fighting, of throwing punches and kicks, blocking punches and kicks and evading punches and kisks, and it is an ineffective way, as proven by most people who stepped into competitions with it.
A more effective fighting art is Muay Thai.
''TKD practitioners in general tend to utilize their techniques poorly'' TKD in general has poor techniques.

You don't put time and effort to train in a certain style only to take a acouple punches and kicks from it, thatwould be a complete waste of time.

''MT IZ A JOKE Y DO U LZRS DO MOO TAI WIT ITZ FLIPPY KICKZ?"
TKD didn't evolveinto having flippy kicks, it always had them.
You say that its a waste of time to only take away certain techniques from a style. I'd disagree. From most styles, there are adjustments that must be made regardless. In the world of mix martial arts, sifting through techniques is exactly what you do. Every style is modified to fit the cage, and every style has aspects that doesn't work in an MMA environment so it is removed.

Anyways, I find it funny when people say that TKD has intrinsically poor techniques. The specific ones that I kept from it are the jab, cross punch, hook, uppercut, roundhouse kick, front kick, and sidekick. Those are poor techniques? The listed punches are the staple of boxing. And few would argue that those kicks dont have a place somewhere in MMA.

And contrary to popular misconception, TKD didn't always have 'flippy kicks.' Back when I practiced it, I had been taught powerful kicks. And I had also been warned about the tournament variations of said techniques, which are basically flicks of the leg.

I mean, I hate to burst people's bubbles but... properly distributing weight to give their punches/kicks power is a pretty wide-spread principal. I'd be skeptical to think that the Koreans couldn't figure it out.

Also, I believe its possible that some people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I wouldn't, by any means, argue that TKD is its own self-sufficient style (not that any style is). I, however, am just saying that its unmodified techniques are hardly different from other striking arts I've seen/practiced. It's just applied poorly.
Kin is offline  
post #75 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 02:47 PM
Banned
 
TheNegation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,809
                     
Thats not what I mean. Take mefor example. Ihavehad boxing classes. I can box, and do, in fights.
But I wouldnever call myselfaboxer, cos I train primarily in submission wrestling and muay thai. I did boxing to improve my boxing, but jus cos I throw punches doesn't make me a boxer.
Just as taking a couple techniques from TKD and using other styles when you fight more often than your TKD arsenal means you are not representing TKD.
TheNegation is offline  
post #76 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 03:32 PM
Kin
MMA fighter
 
Kin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 649
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNegation
Thats not what I mean. Take mefor example. Ihavehad boxing classes. I can box, and do, in fights.
But I wouldnever call myselfaboxer, cos I train primarily in submission wrestling and muay thai. I did boxing to improve my boxing, but jus cos I throw punches doesn't make me a boxer.
Just as taking a couple techniques from TKD and using other styles when you fight more often than your TKD arsenal means you are not representing TKD.
I will concede to that point. Though, personally, I credit every style that I've practiced -- as it has done something for me. This is also because I feel like I use what I've learned in different styles in equal frequency. I use footwork and striking from TKD and boxing as I use judo and kickboxing for clinch work, and judo + submission wrestling on the ground.
Kin is offline  
post #77 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 08:05 PM
Outta My Head
 
Onganju's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Paramount, CA
Posts: 1,220
Blog Entries: 11
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNegation
No. Thats all I have to say to your arguement. You cannot take six techniques from a certain style and say you are practising that style.
TKD is more than six techniques. Its a way of fighting, of throwing punches and kicks, blocking punches and kicks and evading punches and kisks, and it is an ineffective way, as proven by most people who stepped into competitions with it.
A more effective fighting art is Muay Thai.
''TKD practitioners in general tend to utilize their techniques poorly'' TKD in general has poor techniques.

You don't put time and effort to train in a certain style only to take a acouple punches and kicks from it, thatwould be a complete waste of time.

''MT IZ A JOKE Y DO U LZRS DO MOO TAI WIT ITZ FLIPPY KICKZ?"
TKD didn't evolveinto having flippy kicks, it always had them.
This is not a true statement. You do realize that Muay Thai also has similar "showy" techniques that predate TKD by centuries? For instance, the climbing of opponents to deliver a knee or elbow strike? How about launching yourself so that you're horizontal to the ground so that you his your opponent with the top of your head, or with you butt? Look up a book called Muay Thai: The Art of Fighting by Yod Ruerngsa, Khun Kao Charuad and James Cartmell and you'll see some pretty outlandish techniques. Does that mean that MT is useless by the content of techniques? No not at all...

If the practitioner trains with intention to do well in the ring, they will do well in the ring. Regardless what styles they have studied. Bas Rutten has openly stated that his TKD training was invaluable to the rest of his Martial Arts training as a whole. There are a number of K1 practitioners that have trained in TKD at some point or another. "But they do well because they practice MT!" you interject. Bull... K1 is far from MT.

Which brings us back to the original point, it isn't the content of the style. Rather it is the context of training that will lend itself to success in one's given fora whether that be a ring, octagon or on the street. If you're caught up in the content (that magical "six techniques" that you are searching for us to villify), then you're going to be tied up in keeping track of a live, quantified, numerical execution of techniques to try to map out a "sure-fire" formula of MMA success. Sorry, but it would be impossible to do that. If you claim that you can, I'm going to ask you where you're hiding your snake oil. Using that to validate the weight of your training would be like getting taken down, sweeping your opponent and then punching him unconscious only to openly state to passersby that, "That's due to my boxing training because I hit him 8 times and only swept him once. My grappling training had minimal statistical merit in that encounter." Sure... If you say so...

Now I hear the oft thrown around cliche' of "Discarding the useless and training the useful..." This is a very famous saying that was quoted from Bruce Lee. Here's the caveat to his words: Bruce trained himself in everything that he could to make himself familiar. He didn't see the outcome of X number of matches or challenges before he did inventory on his catalog of techniques and declared that "everything from X-style is crap." The man took the time to train in everything that he could. The place I'm currently going to is run by a student of Lee's and would say that a little differently. He would state it as, "Discard what is useless and train to find what works for you."

Granted, not everyone is going to able to do each and every Poom in the Complete Hyung of Tae Kwon Do. But if it helps them to get rid of their "2 left feet" and helps them deliver a mean kick at chest height, I'm not going to black list the whole of a style or methodology because it doesn't do well with X-Style in this type of event or sport. In that case... TKD is useless because it doesn't do well against MT in a MT match. MT is useless because it doesn't do well against San Shou in a San Shou match. San Shou is useless because it doesn't do well against Boxing in a Boxing match. Boxing is useless because it doesn't help against Greco-Roman in Olympic wrestling. Greco-Roman is useless because it doesn't help BJJ in a BJJ match. BJJ is useless because it doesn't help me when a guy has a gun pulled at me from down the hall. And so on, and so on, ad nauseum.

With that I give you this and this to look at. It should be self explanatory.

It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree... As long as I don't bore you and I spark a moment of thought, my goal is achieved.

Queng leon queng tigre ecu tacacut, queca pa? - Pampangan Mandarigma Motto

My Blog <--READ IT!
Onganju is offline  
post #78 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 08:12 PM
Banned
 
TheNegation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,809
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onganju
Using that to validate the weight of your training would be like getting taken down, sweeping your opponent and then punching him unconscious only to openly state to passersby that, "That's due to my boxing training because I hit him 8 times and only swept him once. My grappling training had minimal statistical merit in that encounter." Sure... If you say so...
But thats not what I am saying at all. Forget it.

And I have seen both those videos a couple of times before.
You really misunderstood what I am trying to say, nevermind.
TheNegation is offline  
post #79 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 08:27 PM
Featherweight
 
js9234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Currently stationed in Abilene, TX
Posts: 1,170
                     
Wow, ya'll have gotten off subject... MT is better for conditioning, useful in a street fight and MORE useful in MMA, building strong kicks and punches, etc. It is just plain better. I'm not saying that TKD isn't useful at all. If you like TKD that's cool, no problem at all BUT MT is all around better. I am not biased to either because I've trained in both. I honestly think MT is just too hardcore for a lot of people and they should go to TKD if they can't handle MT. Yes, I'm saying TKD is below MT because it is and if you wanna argue that, YOU ARE WRONG...
js9234 is offline  
post #80 of 275 (permalink) Old 06-13-2007, 08:37 PM
Outta My Head
 
Onganju's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Paramount, CA
Posts: 1,220
Blog Entries: 11
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by js9234
Wow, ya'll have gotten off subject... MT is better for conditioning, useful in a street fight and MORE useful in MMA, building strong kicks and punches, etc. It is just plain better. I'm not saying that TKD isn't useful at all. If you like TKD that's cool, no problem at all BUT MT is all around better. I am not biased to either because I've trained in both. I honestly think MT is just too hardcore for a lot of people and they should go to TKD if they can't handle MT. Yes, I'm saying TKD is below MT because it is and if you wanna argue that, YOU ARE WRONG...
I'm wouldn't say that. I'd say that each has their place. It's like saying a flat-headed screwdriver is better than a knife because its tip doesn't break off when you open paint cans. Each is used differently.

In your instance, guess what? The content of the training is determined by the context of training. In which case, it's just a game of swapping labels after you strip things down. Why do I say that?

In due time, MT (outside of Thailand) will be just as watered-down and McDojo'd as a lot of TKD. It's current wide known success in open combat events will help that process to accelerate by quite a bit. The same thing happened to a lot of the now "useless" TMA's that were so prevelant in the late 60's and up through the 70's.

It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree... As long as I don't bore you and I spark a moment of thought, my goal is achieved.

Queng leon queng tigre ecu tacacut, queca pa? - Pampangan Mandarigma Motto

My Blog <--READ IT!
Onganju is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome