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Old 07-27-2009, 03:47 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by faeflora View Post
OK to the OP-- this guy is talking out of his ass about Krav Maga.

Those Krava Maga techniques you are pooping on are actually successfully employed in life and death situations. I know people personally who have successfully used Krav knife and gun disarms as well as in hand to hand encounters.

Note that we are not talking about martial arts, we are not talking about sport fighting, we are are talking about practical self-defense on the street. BJJ is great and Muay Thai is great but how about when it's 3 people on one. What if someone pulls a knife on you and you run, but they run faster than you? What if you have a gun to you obey and you give them your wallet but then they shoot you anyways? Krav Maga has technical solutions for those situations and moreso, a GOOD Krav school will help you develop the mentality to SURVIVE LIFE OR DEATH SITUATIONS. A huge part of Krav training is the mental conditioning and the ability to stay strong and keep fighting under extreme stress and duress. They don't show that in the technique manuals. No technique will provide instant assured victory for a 100 lb woman vs a 300 lb trained/street experienced thug BUT continuous relentless resistance and attacks will and do dissaude attackers by making thier tasks difficult and unpleasant.

The reality is that if you have a trained or experienced crimminal dancing and feinting in front of you with a knife, you might be in some very serious deep shit. Or, if you have someone pointing a gun to you and keeping their distance instead of walking up to you and waving it in your face (watch youtube crime videos to see that behaviour pattern), you may just be ****ed. A good Krav school will help a bit against those scenarios as well though and teach you situational awareness.

Regarding the technicals of Krav Weapon defense, a good school will show you how the defenses are not stiff, how the basic essential defense training also works against knifes, sticks/bats. A good school will train you with multiple angles, unpredictable attacks etc.

Regarding chick tricks, I'd like to see you guarding your nuts and eyes while throwing a powerful punches. Very few crimminals will not be trained martial artists/fighters and many street "fights" will not be one on one. Krav helps with all of that.

Last thing- I said "good krav school" a few times. Yes, not all krav schools are good and neither are all bjj or MT schools.

To the OP-- what city are you located in? I could possibly reccommend a good krav school to check out.
We all "know people" that have supposedly successfully used techniques from any bullshido MA out there including garbage like Tai Chi and Aikido, which are better categorized as new age spiritual practices rather than fighting techniques. While I respect that these arts are good for relaxation, spiritual and recreational purposes, they will get your ass kicked if you think they'll work in fighting.

Anyway, were you there when said attacks occured on Krav Maga guy? No? Oh the guy just told you, mmmhm, I see. And of course he has no vested interest in defending an art that he spent years and tons of money training, gives him a huge self-esteem boost and makes him feel like some kind of badass. None at all. Hint: people lie, or at least exagerrate ... only believe your eyes. I see proof of Muay Thai in MMA, which is the closest to real legalized form of fighting. I've also personally seen (and not just heard) MT/Boxing type proved on multiple occasions in street fights. Not to mention, there's tons of videos on YouTube and such of Boxers and MT guys taking out multiple dudes in a street attack, ones that don't look blatantly faked. Here's one such of a boxer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCJ8J...eature=related

I know MT and boxing are different, but they're related and MT has absorbed most of western boxing and is proven and tested under the same circumstances i.e. in the ring. And there's videos for MT in street fights out there too. Any and all such "proof" for Krav Maga and Bullshido type MAs are blatantly and obviously scripted. That, or they're slow ass "demonstrations" with fully cooperating "attackers" that allow themselves to be grabbed, leave themselves open and unmoving for 10 secs while some chick releases her slow ass combo on his junk and eyes. Real fights are far more fluid than the crap shown in those demonstrations, the attacker usually reacts.. fancy that. I'm not completely making an opinion based on nothing, my brother took the thing for years, and I've seen it's techniques up close a lot but there's never any proof, only hardcore feelgood propaganda to stroke people's egos.

As for the "there's bad schools out there, but the art is good" excuse, that is the first cop out for every bullshido art out there. But EVERY krav school on the internet shows these same fake ass demonstrations of techniques that anyone with an intution and experience of real fights will know that they will never work against a resisting opponent swinging or slashing at you. Funny how you never hear excuses like that about Muay Thai, Boxing or MMA schools ... because the techniques WORK. No matter where you learn it, MT, Boxing and MMA will inevitably teach you to destroy, because it's earned from hard work and pain in REAL, fluid fighting, with minimal rules. Not comfortable feelgood stuff that serves as ego-boosters without putting in real fighting.

As for your deadly krav techniques working against multiple people, if they won't work on one, they certainly won't work on multiple. Even more people reacting to your slow scripted choreography.

If you can't get away by running, use your common sense and proven fighting techniques. Yes, go for the groin, eyes and throat if you can, but you don't need 10 years of training for that common sense shit, I look for those openings even just knowing MMA. But knowing how to throw powerful boxing punches, MT knees, elbows and kicks will create openings where there are none. You'll power your way through by hurting the other guy whether even if he doesn't let you or leave you blatant openings.

I am very familiar with the so called "hardcore" mentality taught in Krav schools. IMO more than helping people survive, it makes them act like tough guys and aggressive, which will probably get them in more trouble than saving them. Because while in MT, MMA and real fighting arts, there is a constant developing respect for the realism of fights, other's abilities and humility from getting your ass kicked in order to get better, there is no such thing in the fake scripted world of Krav. And they're constantly analyzing every little thing as a threat, overreacting to the craziest things like someone walking close behind them in a hallway. Because you are somehow this badass dude/chick with a chip off his shoulder that is "trained to kill" against any ridiculous odds and is always looking for threats. More like it will get you killed. Again, no one will hold still like that in real life while you make a grab for their knife or gun, or convieniently pop their heads into position for a knee after your first attack in a scripted combination. They could just as easliy react with a wild stab. But no.. they never teach any form of fluid defence or reaction in Krav, because the enemy will always react exactly the way you conveniently script them, and fall like flies at your deadly blows.
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:48 AM   #42 (permalink)
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There are DVDs showing how to integrate MT into streetfighting? Where where where?
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:53 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
We all "know people" that have supposedly successfully used techniques from any bullshido MA out there including garbage like Tai Chi and Aikido, which are better categorized as new age spiritual practices rather than fighting techniques. While I respect that these arts are good for relaxation, spiritual and recreational purposes, they will get your ass kicked if you think they'll work in fighting.

Anyway, were you there when said attacks occured on Krav Maga guy? No? Oh the guy just told you, mmmhm, I see. And of course he has no vested interest in defending an art that he spent years and tons of money training, gives him a huge self-esteem boost and makes him feel like some kind of badass


None at all. Hint: people lie, or at least exagerrate ... only believe your eyes. I see proof of Muay Thai in MMA, which is the closest to real legalized form of fighting. I've also personally seen (and not just heard) MT/Boxing type proved on multiple occasions in street fights. Not to mention, there's tons of videos on YouTube and such of Boxers and MT guys taking out multiple dudes in a street attack, ones that don't look blatantly faked. Here's one such of a boxer:
I know MT and boxing are different, but they're related and MT has absorbed most of western boxing and is proven and tested under the same circumstances i.e. in the ring. And there's videos for MT in street fights out there too. Any and all such "proof" for Krav Maga and Bullshido type MAs are blatantly and obviously scripted. That, or they're slow ass "demonstrations" with fully cooperating "attackers" that allow themselves to be grabbed, leave themselves open and unmoving for 10 secs while some chick releases her slow ass combo on his junk and eyes. Real fights are far more fluid than the crap shown in those demonstrations, the attacker usually reacts.. fancy that. I'm not completely making an opinion based on nothing, my brother took the thing for years, and I've seen it's techniques up close a lot but there's never any proof, only hardcore feelgood propaganda to stroke people's egos.




As for the "there's bad schools out there, but the art is good" excuse, that is the first cop out for every bullshido art out there. But EVERY krav school on the internet shows these same fake ass demonstrations of techniques that anyone with an intution and experience of real fights will know that they will never work against a resisting opponent swinging or slashing at you. Funny how you never hear excuses like that about Muay Thai, Boxing or MMA schools ... because the techniques WORK. No matter where you learn it, MT, Boxing and MMA will inevitably teach you to destroy, because it's earned from hard work and pain in REAL, fluid fighting, with minimal rules. Not comfortable feelgood stuff that serves as ego-boosters without putting in real fighting.

As for your deadly krav techniques working against multiple people, if they won't work on one, they certainly won't work on multiple. Even more people reacting to your slow scripted choreography.

If you can't get away by running, use your common sense and proven fighting techniques. Yes, go for the groin, eyes and throat if you can, but you don't need 10 years of training for that common sense shit, I look for those openings even just knowing MMA. But knowing how to throw powerful boxing punches, MT knees, elbows and kicks will create openings where there are none. You'll power your way through by hurting the other guy whether even if he doesn't let you or leave you blatant openings.

I am very familiar with the so called "hardcore" mentality taught in Krav schools. IMO more than helping people survive, it makes them act like tough guys and aggressive, which will probably get them in more trouble than saving them. Because while in MT, MMA and real fighting arts, there is a constant developing respect for the realism of fights, other's abilities and humility from getting your ass kicked in order to get better, there is no such thing in the fake scripted world of Krav. And they're constantly analyzing every little thing as a threat, overreacting to the craziest things like someone walking close behind them in a hallway. Because you are somehow this badass dude/chick with a chip off his shoulder that is "trained to kill" against any ridiculous odds and is always looking for threats. More like it will get you killed. Again, no one will hold still like that in real life while you make a grab for their knife or gun, or convieniently pop their heads into position for a knee after your first attack in a scripted combination. They could just as easliy react with a wild stab. But no.. they never teach any form of fluid defence or reaction in Krav, because the enemy will always react exactly the way you conveniently script them, and fall like flies at your deadly blows.
One of the key points of Krav is that the techniques are easy to pick up so you don't need years drilling them. FYI some background on myself I trained TKD and Aikido for about 6 years and have been doing Krav about 2 years. I also train BJJ and do MMA sportfighting-style "sparring" for fun. I learned a lot of tradiitonal aikido defenses etc and a lot of them just don't work if the guy is bigger than you. In my experience the Krav techniques are just easier and more practical and don't rely on leverage- the goal instead is to become the attacker.

Ugh dude you are still talking out of your ass. A lot of Krav standup technique is actually straight good 'ol Muay Thai and a lot of the ground technique is good 'ol BJJ. Good Krav schools will also incorportate fighting/sparring into the curriculum. If Krav sucks so bad then why do so many cops take it? How about military personel including special forces? Bodyguards and bouncers? I've trained at a bunch of MMA-style schools in addition to Krav and they bring none of the fierceness training and aggression out of thier students like Krav does. Maybe you have that already if you are an MMA fighter but Joe Shmoe doesn't and Krav gives Joe Shmoe a few techniques and the confidence and aggression to respond with violence if he has to.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:57 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by swpthleg View Post
There are DVDs showing how to integrate MT into streetfighting? Where where where?
Hmm.. don't know where to find the DVD, but here's a snippet from a really nice instructional by Bas Rutten on applying MT to street fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3bW0...om=PL&index=15

It has the basic MT grab (move with the kick) and trip, but he adds in his trademark "dirty" attacks like punch the balls, knee the balls lol. He kinda modifies the standard MT block/clinch/elbow/neck lean takedown into one slightly different, but same thing. Of course it's all theory in this one, if you have a video of a guy using a MT kick for real on someone's junk, I'm guessing you have a video of a murder scene on your hands . The full DVD has a lot more stuff, primarily from MT and some catch wrestling. You could search for the DVD set online I guess, probably Bas Rutten Muay Thai street fighting or something.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:03 AM   #45 (permalink)
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That RULED! Angry Bas with the mustache throwing and ball stomping!

That elbow to the ribs after catching the kick was good, but you better hope neither of your opponent's hands can get to your head or neck at that point.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:10 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swpthleg View Post
That RULED! Angry Bas with the mustache throwing and ball stomping!

That elbow to the ribs after catching the kick was good, but you better hope neither of your opponent's hands can get to your head or neck at that point.
Yeah, I feel unfortunately even Bas and trained fighters can get into some level of assumption and scripting when making these vids... really, only a full sparring session can account for true reactions. Nothing's gonna be exactly the same as the real thing, but you get a better idea of what your opponent can pull on you usually in a sparring or sport fight, short of a real fight. Still, it's nice to see him put it in the perspective of street fighting. And that elbow to the head wasn't too far off from what Jon Jones pulled on Bonnar .. same kick grab, but he spinning back fisted him while he was off balance and open like that. I usually just sweep the remaining leg.. least risky and it makes a fun splat, plus in a street fight they're sitting ducks after that.

EDIT: lol just realized, "sweep the remaining leg". You should love that one
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:26 AM   #47 (permalink)
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You CANNOT go wrong with a leg sweep. There is a judo class that is frequently taking place at the same time as my MMA class, and I never get sick of watching them sweep, reap, fall, roll, side slap out, whatever.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:10 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faeflora View Post
One of the key points of Krav is that the techniques are easy to pick up so you don't need years drilling them. FYI some background on myself I trained TKD and Aikido for about 6 years and have been doing Krav about 2 years. I also train BJJ and do MMA sportfighting-style "sparring" for fun. I learned a lot of tradiitonal aikido defenses etc and a lot of them just don't work if the guy is bigger than you. In my experience the Krav techniques are just easier and more practical and don't rely on leverage- the goal instead is to become the attacker.

Ugh dude you are still talking out of your ass. A lot of Krav standup technique is actually straight good 'ol Muay Thai and a lot of the ground technique is good 'ol BJJ. Good Krav schools will also incorportate fighting/sparring into the curriculum. If Krav sucks so bad then why do so many cops take it? How about military personel including special forces? Bodyguards and bouncers? I've trained at a bunch of MMA-style schools in addition to Krav and they bring none of the fierceness training and aggression out of thier students like Krav does. Maybe you have that already if you are an MMA fighter but Joe Shmoe doesn't and Krav gives Joe Shmoe a few techniques and the confidence and aggression to respond with violence if he has to.
I think you just answered your own question there, just switch the order of your paragraphs around. Why do so many cops and soldiers take Krav Maga? Because it's easy to learn and doesn't take much effort! It doesn't matter if it actually works, because it'll never get tested. A soldier or police officer usually NEVER actually has to use it... they have guns, tazers and backups. Most people are too scared to resist them even if they do get physical ... the most I've ever seen cops use in terms of physical force is just barrel into a guy and take him down, taking advantage of the guy being afraid of assaulting an officer. If a guy actually tries to fight em, they just pull out their gun or tazer. If somehow they get surprised, don't have backup and can't reach their weapon, then Krav's whole aggressive "first-strike" mentality is useless to them anyway... the last thing they wanna do is kick some civilian in the nuts before they're even threatened. If they feel threatened, just pull your weapon out.

Another factor with why soldiers (actually, just the Israeli military) learn it, it's because the govt. tells them to. It makes for very nice propaganda, every govt. teaches it's soldiers it's "own" MA in the interests of national pride. Chinese soldiers learn Kung Fu and Tai Chi... doesn't necessarily mean they work great. Because when it comes to real application, their *real* training that they actually use is Marksmanship, endurance, physical fitness and as a last resort Bayonets and knives etc. NEVER unarmed combat.

But as for learning a convenient martial art with minimal effort, you get what you put in ... IMO if you don't fight, you'll never learn how. Just like reading a book on farming doesn't make you a farmer, learning all this theoretical stuff without practicing it in a relative free-for-all sparring just makes it choreography. Most Krav schools have no sparring whatsoever, and the ones that do have it, it's so limited and cooperative that it's barely better than not having it.

Still, I'll give you, it's probably better than nothing and probably does have some benefits, like learning to throw and the confidence. I just feel that Krav schools elevate it above arts that actually prove themselves and give much more fluid training, with Krav using cheesy "hardcore" marketing (including the whole soldier thing) and unrealistic grand claims. Anyway, in the interests of not being a complete dick, lets leave it at that and hope it helps you out. Good luck with your MA journey and welcome to the forum.
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:00 PM   #49 (permalink)
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All I can say is if you are looking to be able to learn how to defend yourself in the quickest most effective manner, then Muay Thai is your weapon. Guys come to the gym for 2 months then piss off jsut to learn how to defend themselves.
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:52 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I would say Def yes...very effective!!!
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