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Muay Thai or TKD

51K views 274 replies 71 participants last post by  Spirion1 
#1 ·
I'm having an arguement with a guy on youtube who thinks Muay Thai sucks compared to tae kwon do. I think that the simple lack of protecting your face in TKD says it all. Tell me what you think is better
 
#161 ·
Thank you for being the first person in this thread to say in so many words that they respect TKD rather than expressing the knee-jerk response (prevalent in this forum imo) that anything other than MT, JJ, BJJ, JKD, judo or similar is wussy.

Clearly I'm going to have to keep saying that not all of us live in an area where MT etc. is even available.
 
#164 · (Edited)
Indeed I do live in beautiful upstate NY, in a town of about 40,000 ppl and that's stretching it a little by including some of the surrounding areas. Our options here, apart from TKD, are a) sport karate at an obnoxious cobra-kai type school which is also expensive enough to nearly price itself out of the local market, gojuryu karate, and years ago, kune tao but then the instructor had a kidney transplant and never went back to teaching. The sport karate school supposedly has one or two ppl who "will teach" judo and MT but that does not make them nearly qualified enough imo.

Finally the owner of the sport karate school, when asked if anyone teaches tkd locally, lies and says no b/c he's bitter that although he's beaten my teacher sparring 2x or so over the years, my teacher has owned him many times more. nice rei cobra kai guy!!!
 
#166 ·
we live about 2 1/2 hrs away
Seriously there is nothing here, relatively speaking. I can't go to Buffalo for example ( nearest major city) b/c it wouldn't leave me enough time with the husband and kids not to mention the gas $$$$$$.

That was one of the reasons I started watching TUF, I would sit there and be in awe of their beautiful training facilities.
 
#168 ·
"To say that, for some reason, they don't strike with their hips is absurd. They also strike from their legs.

Watch this Tyson highlight, and tell me again that he's not moving his hips." Mike tyson is merely moving with the punches look at him punching the bag with the bulk of his fast punches coming via the triceps, try punching a bag while torking your hips a see for yourself how much speed you get.
 
#172 ·
Man, do you not understand that I actually do this stuff. Clearly you think I'm new to this, and that's a little disrespectful. Whatever.

If you really think that you generate power with your arms, going into a fight with a top tier boxer (even a good amateur) and do that. He'll laugh at you if you start throwing arm punches.

I've worked with guys like Ward and Cung Le. These are guys who say, over and over again, use your hips. Tyson says it in his training, and his coaches drilled it into him. Actually watch him fight.

If you want me to dissect the anatomy of the punch, that's fine. Really, though, you should just watch the National Georgraphic documentary on fight sciences (not the MMA one that they did, though that was good; the earlier one with Melchor Menor). They spend 3 minutes talking about how a boxer's power comes from his feet and his hips.

This isn't some basic technical disagreement, man. This is scientific, and it's not disputed. Nobody throws arm-punches, and the guys who think they can get KTFO.
 
#169 ·
You can generate spped and power when you torque your hips. When you torque your hips and rotate your body faster than your arm you have a jerking motion that creates even more speed. When you torque your hips this is not a tell like you said. Cocking your hand is a tell, torquing your hips is not. You are right in that Tyson uses his legs, you are wrong in that he did torque his hips. There is no way you can watch Mayweather's check hook and tell me that he doesn't use his hips.
 
#170 ·
1st of all I said that tyson hip movement is a result of him moving with the punch and because he purposely torquing them. 2nd I never telegraph with your hands. lastly there is a truism in boxing and that is if you have to rely on power to win a match you've already lost the fight. Tyson's power comes from his forearms and triceps just look at them. as for Mayweather speed kills because it is power.
 
#171 ·
1st of all I said that tyson hip movement is a result of him moving with the punch and because he purposely torquing them. 2nd I never telegraph with your hands. lastly there is a truism in boxing and that is if you have to rely on power to win a match you've already lost the fight. Tyson's power comes from his forearms and triceps just look at them. as for Mayweather speed kills because it is power.
:rolleyes:

It's clear you have no idea what your talking about. You go tell any boxing training what you are saying and they will laugh because Tyson was KNOWN for his hip torque. How does Mayweather generate his power for his check hook by the way?
 
#173 ·
No torquing the hips is a finishing move but how do you get there without getting your hips coiled thats called telegraphing. no good pro is going to be around long enough for you to do that. remember more fights are won on the feet than won on the gloves and lastly I don't worry about power I worry about getting hit. there is no wrong only learning.
 
#174 ·
There is wrong. Wrong is what gets you KTFO'd.

Look, watch how Fedor throws (always from the hips), watch how CroCop throws (same) and watch how Nogueira throws (again, the same). These are three guys who come from three totally different striking backgrounds, and the biggest consistency is the fact that they throw their punches off of their hips

You don't even understand how a punch coming off of the hips works. It's not about coiling them, it's about swinging them out from a neutral position. You're right that a pro-fighter would never coil his hips to throw some big looping punch (actually, you're technically wrong about that, too, because Chuck Liddell did it for years), but that's not what fighters do.

It's about moving into your strike with the hips, not twisting the strike up and then releasing it. Mayweather's "check hook" isn't wound up (it doesn't have the time to be), but it comes, pointedly and clearly, off of the hips.
 
#176 ·
It's that attitude that gets guys killed in MMA fights. You're so concerned about getting hit that you don't throw a serious punch, and your opponent gets more and more confident as you fail to sting him. You paw and he works you with jabs and leg kicks (both of which he puts his hips into), until he wears you down. Then you're too slow to get out of the way, and you get KTFO'd.

You have to hit back in a fight, man. You have to assert your dominance as a striker if you want to strike. You can't just paw and back away and expect to just dodge your way through a fight. It doesn't work like that. Your opponent is going to keep attacking.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be worried about getting hit. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't be your first concern. If you have a glass jaw, then you should worry about getting hit.

You shouldn't sacrific your power by taking your hips out of punches. That only makes your opponent more willing to throw, more willing to hit you and gives him more control over the pace of the fight.

Guys like Chuck Liddell use their hips, they don't do that pawing bullsh*t, and they knock guys out by being great counter punchers. You can move and still use your hips into a strike. If you don't know how to do that, then you've got bigger issues.
 
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#177 ·
ex-bouncer, this is a pretty cool video about power, some of its sumo wrestlers but its not to long, and it has rampage punching and explains where his punching power comes from... check it out

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jzYMX_3K_xE
 
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#178 ·
Arm punches are just weak and are what people that don't know how to strike throw. Go watch Frank Trigg vs. Fabiano Iha, where Trigg is throwing arm punches and takes forever to KO the guy. Trigg even says himself on the Pride show on FSN that he was throwing crappy arm punches instead of using his hips, because at that time he didn't know how to strike.
 
#180 ·
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABZu5v2JPuE
watch Lennox Lewis get ko'd by Rahman look how just before he got hit he bent at the waist hoping to land a bomb just as he was bending Rahman throw the right and boom it was over. Your right that is the kind of attitude that gets one ko'd. larry holmes, Ali. I'm just gonna dance in the ring all night and flick my jab out there. styles make fights.
 
#181 ·
You're really going to tell me that you can't see Rahman putting his hips into that punch?

You're really going to tell me that Ali didn't use his hips when he threw punches, move his body into his jabs?

You're really going to tell me that Larry Homes throws arm punches?

Watch the Fight Science that recon posted for you. You need to put your ass in your punches, man, and that's what those guys are doing.
 
#186 ·
If you want to make this personal, go ahead. I would advise you against it, given that this is the internet, and you actually have no clue who I am. But it's not like it matters, we'll probably never meet anyway, so whatever you say is empty.

Probably, though, you're just frustrated that you actually have no argument anymore. Stop whining and take a loss like a man. It happens, you learn something and then you move on. Grow up. I'm fairly sure that I'm younger than you are, but if you keep talking like that I'm going to start "strongly assuming" that someone needs to change you diaper.

At least when Dr. Benjamin threatened me, he had the decency to make it a joke.
 
#184 ·
So you want to box like RJJ or Sugar Ray Leonard without using the power that they used? You will get hurt in the ring if you do that. I'm assuming you like to leave the fight in the hands of someone other than yourself as well since you won't be KO'ing anyone.

Also could you tell me how Cotto, probably the best body puncher in boxing right now, hits so hard without using his hips. I would really like to hear how he does this.
 
#187 ·
It's because he is actually the 1,000,000 dollar man, with shoulders made out of car pistons, that power his arm with all of the force of Rampage's ass.

As far as RJJ and SRL, those are guys that, like Tyson, Ali, Mayweather and just about every other top tier striker (not just boxer), use their hips. Thanks for adding more names to our already excessive list of guys who actually know how to throw punches.
 
#190 ·
So does this mean that Ernesto Hoost doesn't rotate his hips when he kicks? :confused02:
 
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#191 · (Edited)
speaking of Larry Holmes I spoke to Jerry Cooney who fought Larry. It's been almost 10 years since I spoke to Gerry and 17 years since I spoke with Larry. Gerry told me that Larry's jab was stinging not crushing with no ko power behind it. this also recalls my previous conversation with Holmes regarding Tommy Morrison who had a big quick left hook. Larry responded "Yeah! he's easy because your going to see his left hook coming from a mile away. Larry would know since he fought Cooney who is regarded as having one the best left hooks ever. remember a good boxer is going to pick you apart not KO you off the start this why people who fought Ali came out cut up and bruised as opposed to broke up. I talked Jimmy Young many years ago who fought Ali and he described Ali's jab as a pump and not a hammer his aim was to cut you not brake you. you can tell who is the boxers from this thread. "Mike Tyson could knock you out with an open glove. I wish I had that kind of power". Micheal "jinx" Spinx "Mike Tyson's punch is so powerful that he could knock you out with out putting his hips into it" larry Merchant
 
#193 ·
See here in lies the problem. In order for one to execute a punch from hips he first has to plant his feet, then sink his ankle on his right back leg into the ground so that he can spring off of it generating the power etc. However a boxer is going to read that and as we call it in boxing get on his bicycle and start back peddling and giving his opponent angles . this will immediately make his opponent switch from power to speed or as we call it cause him to shoe shine. he knows the cardinal rule don't stand in front of the puncher.

Lou Savarese thought like that back when he fought David Izon I warned him about Izon I told him don't worry about landing your left hook Izon is much to quick for that he'll come under it and then come over the top answering with his own left hook. I also warned him against throwing a power jab against him because he'd put his foot out to the left and slip the punch and answer it with the left hook. I explained to him that the only way Izon could beat him was with the left hook straight right hand combination being that he was shorter. " We've got it figured out" Savarese and in the fifth round he throw a power left Izon came up and over it and knock Lou threw the ropes I was right there. :dunno:
 
#194 ·
You do know the reason why Ali's jab was so effective right?
 
#198 ·
Because he flicked his hip into it.
 
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