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Shamrock vs. Gracie

5K views 97 replies 38 participants last post by  light 
#1 ·
i wish i seen this!! i was watchin the play by play on sherdog...they said Gracie took first round, then in second round, Frank lands two knees to Renzo's head while on the ground...and Frank gets dusqualified!! FRANK LOST THE BOUT!! im so happy! but i wish i saw it..
 
#53 ·
SupremeTapout said:
put it this way... phils gonna get his ass kicked for what happened last night.
If Frankie fights Phil Baroni like he did with Renzo last night, he is going to get his a$$ handed to him.
 
#54 ·
mma1357 said:
I think it depends on how much you know about BJJ. The people who are experienced or at least train bjj don't seem to think he was just laying there. If you don't know much about bjj then I can understand why it looks like he isn't doing anything (btw - I am in no way trying to put you down. I dont mean anything personal by it).
its ok man i understand what u mean. nothing personal.
 
#56 ·
I also think the fence aided Shamrock's ability to deliver a knee to the back of the head. He was able to create that angle and leverage with his hips because his right foot was positioned high on the fence. If it had been Pride rules in a ring (you're not allowed to use the ropes also), they would have been put in the middle of the ring, those knees would have been legal but only landed on the side of Renzo's head, not the back of the head. And Renzo could have retaliated in kind.
I don't recall Frank going for one submission attempt while on the bottom. It looked like he was simply trying to neutralize Renzo. At the highest level it takes time to work a submission and Renzo was slowly isolating Frank's arm the first time they were stood up.
I really thought Frank Shamrock was a great fighter until he dropped out of the game when the competition started getting better. He's been out of the fight game for 7 years and claims to be undefeated in 10 years. How do you defend that? If SHAMrock does fight Phil Baroni, he will have his hands full.
 
#59 · (Edited)
TKOSPIKE said:
i think u got that one twisted around there. idk if we were watching the same fight because what i saw was frank working on the ground and renzo just laying there..
honestly, if you couldn't see Renzo working for position, then i'm not sure you're too versed on BJJ. frank kept on tossing light knees into Renzo's side, but wasn't doing anything to escape Renzo's sidemount. also, Renzo was working for position, as well as keeping Frank on the ground--not like he needed to work hard at that though.
 
#60 ·
thickma said:
I also think the fence aided Shamrock's ability to deliver a knee to the back of the head. He was able to create that angle and leverage with his hips because his right foot was positioned high on the fence. If it had been Pride rules in a ring (you're not allowed to use the ropes also), they would have been put in the middle of the ring, those knees would have been legal but only landed on the side of Renzo's head, not the back of the head. And Renzo could have retaliated in kind.
I don't recall Frank going for one submission attempt while on the bottom. It looked like he was simply trying to neutralize Renzo. At the highest level it takes time to work a submission and Renzo was slowly isolating Frank's arm the first time they were stood up.
I really thought Frank Shamrock was a great fighter until he dropped out of the game when the competition started getting better. He's been out of the fight game for 7 years and claims to be undefeated in 10 years. How do you defend that? If SHAMrock does fight Phil Baroni, he will have his hands full.
i caught that to. how are you truly undefeated in 10 years if you haven't fought once in 7? come on... anyone who isn't aware of the shamrock's just doesn't get it. listen to what Ken said to Tito after their last fight... he said; "you know we made a lot of money together". the shamrmocks, all of them, are about getting paid. they don't really care about their records, only getting in the spotlight and getting in the main events, which they always are! Frank is just a scumbag who cheapens the integrity of the sport!
 
#61 ·
pt447 said:
i caught that to. how are you truly undefeated in 10 years if you haven't fought once in 7? come on... anyone who isn't aware of the shamrock's just doesn't get it. listen to what Ken said to Tito after their last fight... he said; "you know we made a lot of money together". the shamrmocks, all of them, are about getting paid. they don't really care about their records, only getting in the spotlight and getting in the main events, which they always are! Frank is just a scumbag who cheapens the integrity of the sport!
Amen to that! I can't believe some of the posters here are trashing Renzo saying he is some washed up hack. What the hell is Frank Shamrock? Renzo goes out thier and takes on men like Carlos Newton, Pat Militech, and BJ Penn? Frank Shamrock disappeared for seven years and comes back to face some nobody. He is def overrated!
 
#62 ·
Let's look at Renzo & Frank's past opponents in the last 7 years.

Renzo: Tamura, Sakuraba, Henderson, Ohara, Oyama, Newton(Twice), Penn, Miletich, and Frankie.

Frank: Elvis Sinosic, Bryan Pardoe, Cesar Gracie, and Renzo.

Renzo may not have the best record around, but he fights quality opponents.

Frank still touts himself as the greatest, and has only faced 2 quality opponents(Sinosic & Renzo) in the past 7 years.

I will say that Frank did look pretty good standing. Probably the best he has ever looked. Sadly, he couldn't defend a takedown to save his life, and let Renzo control him. That is not a good sign for someone who still thinks he's the greatest.
 
#63 ·
Damone said:
Let's look at Renzo & Frank's past opponents in the last 7 years.

Renzo: Tamura, Sakuraba, Henderson, Ohara, Oyama, Newton(Twice), Penn, Miletich, and Frankie.

Frank: Elvis Sinosic, Bryan Pardoe, Cesar Gracie, and Renzo.

Renzo may not have the best record around, but he fights quality opponents.

Frank still touts himself as the greatest, and has only faced 2 quality opponents(Sinosic & Renzo) in the past 7 years.

I will say that Frank did look pretty good standing. Probably the best he has ever looked. Sadly, he couldn't defend a takedown to save his life, and let Renzo control him. That is not a good sign for someone who still thinks he's the greatest.
100% correct!:thumbsup:
 
#64 ·
Bonnar426 said:
Amen to that! I can't believe some of the posters here are trashing Renzo saying he is some washed up hack. What the hell is Frank Shamrock? Renzo goes out thier and takes on men like Carlos Newton, Pat Militech, and BJ Penn? Frank Shamrock disappeared for seven years and comes back to face some nobody. He is def overrated!
Renzo is far from washed up... and a sleak physique don't make Shamrock a good fighter. his strikes were solid, but he had no takedown defense, nothing to offer on the ground and blatantly threw knees into Renzo's kneck... anyone who defends Shamrock in this deal has no knowledge of MMA's history and of the people/familys involved!!!
 
#65 ·
^Agreed. Renzo's the little engine that could. He can still go, and isn't that washed up. Hell, I'd say Frank is more washed up than Renzo, because Renzo still goes in and proves his worth.

Shamrock is a good fighter(Was once a great fighter), but he(And the people who still buy into his bullshit) thinks he's the god of MMA. Sorry, Frankie, you're not.
 
#66 ·
Damone said:
Renzo's the little engine that could. He can still go, and isn't that washed up. Hell, I'd say Frank is more washed up than Renzo, because Renzo still goes in and proves his worth.

Shamrock is a good fighter(Was once a great fighter), but he(And the people who still buy into his bullshit) thinks he's the god of MMA. Sorry, Frankie, you're not.
he was never a god of MMA... he took advantage of the times, which back them, was barely what the sport is today... he was more a Pancrase fighter than he ever was an MMA guy... it's all the classic Shamrock overhype for compensation of lacking skill!

just another example of how much bigger the Shamrock family's mouths are than their talent!
 
#68 ·
dutch sauce said:
^^ thats partially true but dont be talkin like shamrock is a total bum or anything
he had his moments in MMA, but he's very far from Legend status... besides... how can you take 7 years off, claim to be undefeated in that time off, and take credit for being a legend? the guy is a self proported legend, nobody who knows anytying about MMA would call him that. he's a staple figure in MMA's early and middle history, but legend? no, sorry...
 
#69 ·
pt447 said:
he had his moments in MMA, but he's very far from Legend status... besides... how can you take 7 years off, claim to be undefeated in that time off, and take credit for being a legend? the guy is a self proported legend, nobody who knows anytying about MMA would call him that. he's a staple figure in MMA's early and middle history, but legend? no, sorry...
well he has had more and better accomplishments than ken and kens a hall of famer and legend. so IMO i think frank is a legend. after all he was the first complete mma fighter for all of the fighters of today.
 
#70 ·
TKOSPIKE said:
well he has had more and better accomplishments than ken and kens a hall of famer and legend. so IMO i think frank is a legend. after all he was the first complete mma fighter for all of the fighters of today.
Ken is a "legend" because he was around from the start and is recongized for that... but he's in no way "one of the best fighters ever". legend is all well and good, but he'd never stand up to the cream of the crop comparitively! And what better accomplishments has Frank had over Ken? not being a ****, just can't compile a list...:dunno:
 
#71 ·
pt447 said:
Ken is a "legend" because he was around from the start and is recongized for that... but he's in no way "one of the best fighters ever". legend is all well and good, but he'd never stand up to the cream of the crop comparitively! And what better accomplishments has Frank had over Ken? not being a ****, just can't compile a list...:dunno:
well he is a 5 time undefeated middleweight champion in the ufc. and undefeated in the ufc. defeated enson inoue,minoru suzuki, jeremy horn, tito ortiz, elvis sinosic. and he is an overall better fighter, and a complete fighter. but thats why i think he is a legend IMO.
 
#72 ·
TKOSPIKE said:
well he is a 5 time undefeated middleweight champion in the ufc. and undefeated in the ufc. defeated enson inoue,minoru suzuki, jeremy horn, tito ortiz, elvis sinosic. and he is an overall better fighter, and a complete fighter. but thats why i think he is a legend IMO.
well, you provided what i asked for... ok then, he can be considered a legend, but that still doesn't mean he get's a free pass at acting like an ingrate! he might have proven his worth, but i have no respect for guys who act like he did. and no matter what, he erased all his accomplishments by throwing those blatant knees to Renzo's neck... i'm sorry, but you dont' see that horribly blatant disrespect in MMA, and he showed it there...

and you could hear his ***** wife after the fight; "he pussied out"... yeah *****, like you're an acredited crtic of what just happened...
 
#73 ·
All in all Frank shamrock is a classes pr*ck!! Whether you were rooting for Shamrock or Gracie, whether you thought Frank or Renzo was winning, knees to the head of a downed opponent is illegal. Mauro Ranallo was confused on the rules. In the United States, knees or kicks to a downed opponents head are illegal. Whether on top or bottom, if one of your knees is even slightly touching the mat you can't be struck in the head by a knee or kick. Herb Dean made the absolute correct call. Anyone who has seen a grappling match or knows ANYTHING absolutely ANYTHING about BJJ knew Renzo was in control of the entire match.

I don't remember anyone saying Royce Gracie employed a "Lay 'n' Pray" in the early UFC's. In a 60 minute round he would lay upon other fighters or have them in his guard for 30 minutes at a time. But oh ya, he was a badass no "lay n pray" there. Where's the difference? Renzo can snap peoples arm and choke guys tice his size out if you give hi 60 minutes on the ground. It's sad that Royce was a badass for his BJJ and when people employ it as good or better than him they get zero respect becuse they don't stand and get beat up like Cabbage. Enough said.
 
#74 · (Edited)
Ken drew more money though. Also, when you say "Shamrock" to an MMA fan, they'll 99% of the time say Ken. Ken's even recognized by casual fans. Frank is not. Ken can say that the UFC might not have taken off the way it did if it weren't for him. UFC 40 was a huge event, and Shamrock(And Ortiz) were the reasons why.

Frank was the more naturally talented Shamrock, but Ken knew how business worked. When Ken cut a promo, it was to make money. When Frank cuts a promo, it's to stroke his own ego.

Also, I don't get the whole "Renzo did nothing on the ground". Like Ghizman & pt447 said, Renzo was looking for more dominant position's, and taking his time to make sure he'd get a submission. Renzo was in control, and there wasn't a damn thing Frank could do about it(Except throw illegal knee's). Hell, blame Frank for letting Renzo get those positions with ease.
 
#75 ·
Not only that, but he wasn't just holding him there, not trying to advance his positions. He was taking his time, and tried not to make mistakes. I think the quick stalling rule of the Elite XC really interfered with Renzo's gameplan, which was to work Shamrock on the ground, and beat him by outpositioning him. The times they were stood up, I really didn't understand why because Renzo was working to control him. I'd say Renzo was doing pretty well, up until the knees.
 
#76 ·
Lloyd said:
Yeah thats a good point he threw the knee from the bottom!
The bottom line here is Renzo was exhausted and took the easy way out! The knee was unintentional. Its not like Frank knew where the knee would land, he was defending himself!
what do you mean he didnt know where the knees were landing...if you watched the fight shamrock had his hand right along side gracies head,,his knees were hitting right where his hand was...........he knew damn well where his hand was........i hope that loud mouth does fight baroni,,baroni will shut it once and for all......shamrock has no ****en class............
 
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