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Cormier telling the realest thing about MMA

5K views 50 replies 20 participants last post by  xeberus 
#1 ·
It's kind of like pushing someone into the corner of the screen on Street Fighter II back in the day; if you don't like it then get out of the corner, bro. Many, many fans and fighters alike have made it known to the world that they don't appreciate the grinding style brought on by fighters with wrestling backgrounds, and Olympic wrestler Daniel Cormier had a little something to say to them on todays Heavyweight Grand Prix conference call.

"It's not my job, it's not Jon Fitch's job, it's not Josh Barnett's job to actually team someone takedown defense," "It's their job to learn takedown defense. If they can't defend the takedown, then they deserve to lay on their back for 15 minutes."


"I think it's always good to put on exciting fights," Cormier said. "I like to fight. This is my job. If that means I have to stand with him and fight, then I have to fight. What if I can't take him down? But at the end of the day, it's about winning."

"Why should I or anyone else that knows how to wrestle give up their biggest advantage? If a jiu-jitsu guy can get you down, he's going to use his jiu-jitsu. If a striker can keep you standing, he's going to use his standup ability. It's your job, which MMA is, which fighting is, to learn all areas of the game."
Simple as that. Why blame a winner? Should a winner knowingly fight an easier fight just because the fans don't maybe like it?
 
#4 ·
It's a very valid point and it's one that has been brought up many times in the past. In a street fight you do what you got to do to win. But, Sport is entertainment. Some people do not find the lay&pray style entertaining. As a fight fan, I do not mind watching a fight that consit of a lot of takedowns. What turns me away is the guy who takes an opponent down and does nothing but control him. Because they are so focused on not letting them up. Take a person down and do something with it, is what I prefer to see.

Fighters will find some success with the mindset...win at all cost. Take them down and keep them down. But they won't make a lot fans or a lot money. They will also be the first to get cut if they were to lose a couple.

I like the fighters who fight to win, rather than fighting not to lose. If a fighter goes out there and tries to finish and displays heart and will, I will always tune in to watch. I could care less if they ever win a title or what their record is. Most of the MMA fighters and Boxers I have preferred to watch over the years never won a title and had half a dozen or more losses.

Some people like it, some people do not. But in the in it's entertainment, and if people are not entertained they are not going to watch. It is, what it is.
 
#8 · (Edited)
This is all common sense really. I dont think many people would argue this point.
But at the same time they have to realize that "FANS" the people that do NOT have to learn all areas of MMA are there to actually be entertained and not to win. So watching someone drag a person down and have Extra Soft Core Porn isnt very fun. I cant stand watching Soft Core Porn so Extra soft core porn is twice as bad. Even worse extra soft core porn is only guy on guy!!


When fighters complain about wrestling being boring they might as well just come out and tell the truth "I cant wrestle or stop people from taking me down which sucks really really bad when you are fighting someone who can do those things. But im going to try and pretend im saying this stuff cause i think the fans are not being entertained and that way i can score points with fans and hopefully lure my opponent into not using all his skills. AND if i do lose i can just play it off on wanting to be exciting and throw leather instead of just admitting that im not talented enough to learn high level wrestling"
That right there is what i hear when fighters complain about wrestlers.

But when fans complain about wrestlers they do have a point. MMA is supposed to be fighting and wrestling is far from being considered fighting. Wrestling should be a method to take someone down and to keep him down while punching him in the face. It shouldn't be used to take someone down and hold him down, that is not fighting. So people that like to say "Well you just cant appreciate MMA" are pretty much full of it. Wrestling can be exciting when there is a clean shot or slam or slick transitions. BJJ can be exciting when there is some slick grappling or some slick set ups or some risky sub attempts, basically just keeping active. vice versa, striking can be boring if the guys arnt committing to anything and are just trying to jab and run.

My point is you can be a boring wrestler but dont be surprised when you are winning but losing more fans then gaining them. Just come out and admit you dont really care about making it exciting for the people but instead you care about winning and only winning. I would actually probably really enjoy this answer instead of the typical playing dumb response we get "I have really no idea why fans dont like me, didnt they see how i transformed into a blanket and kept my opponent warm for 15-25minutes??"

(Jeeze i wrote more then i wanted to but you guys should read it anyway :thumb02:)
 
#10 ·
Agree 110 percent.

This isn't Boxing, K1, ADCC, NCAA, this is MMA and it's these guys' job to be a well rounded fighter. If you can't get the fight where you want it, too bad.
 
#12 ·
It's perfectly fine if fighters use their wrestling skills to dictate where the fight takes place. If they want it to be on the ground and take their opponent down - good. If they want it standing up and defend their opponent's take down attempts - equally good. What's not perfectly fine is, when once they have the fight where they want it to stop fighting and just laying on the opponent.
 
#20 ·
+1

Wrestling is the only martial art where the opponent dosnt get finished, it should be used for takedowns, takedown defense and grappling en route to a stoppage. Not just to get top position and stall for a UD.

Rules are rules though and wrestling on its own wins a MMA fight so I cant really argue with Fitch/Sonnen/Askeren and the like.
 
#22 ·
That is what I'm trying to say. I'm a wrestler and I am telling you that lay and pray is not a legitimate part of pure wrestling. In pure wrestling you either pin the guy or you take him down and work towards putting him on his back, you just sit on top of the guy then that is stalling and you either get penalized or they stand you up just like in MMA.
 
#23 ·
Laying on someone is fighting is it? No

Is striking fighting? Yes

Is BJJ fighting? Yes

Laying on someone will never ever result in a finish without striking or submissions, so don't lay there not doing anything, that's not a fight that's a game of control.

His argument is utter bullshit.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Laying on someone is fighting is it? No

Is striking fighting? Yes

Is BJJ fighting? Yes

Laying on someone will never ever result in a finish without striking or submissions, so don't lay there not doing anything, that's not a fight that's a game of control.

His argument is utter bullshit.
controlling someone for 15 mins is more convincing than getting a guillotine or flash KO.


Finishing fights has nothing to do with it you dont finish fights with rubber guard you use it to gain control for other things to finish the fight like wrestling.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Basically the reason i dont mind Chael is because he is constantly working. You know how much easier it would be for Chael if he just held on and threw a punch every 10 seconds?? There would be absolutely no way to get him off you. When you are constantly throwing punches then you leave openings for opponents to sweep or reverse or even pull a submission like a triangle off. Sure if Chael fought like Fitch or GSP then he probably would have walked away as the champion. But Chael and everyone else knows that MMA is a fighting sport, you HAVE to fight. If you dont do that then dont complain when you have zero fans. Why should people pay to watch someone when all they do is hug their opponents to a decision?? Sure the fighter gets the win so he is happy. But the crowd doesn't get anything except boredom, disappointment, angry, ETC. The sport loses its appeal and leaves room for comments such as "All they do is hug on the floor, ufc is boring". And sometimes no matter the amount of knowledge you have, you will be sitting there with your non mma fan friend and you will literally not have a single way to disagree with him. The best you will be able to say is "Yeah bro but this isnt normal this guy is just lame". And TBH i kind of DONT think that GSP fits in that LnP category. But when you know what GSP can do it pisses you off to watch him threading that line.

LnP is not wrestling. If anyone ever goes to a wrestling meet they would NEVER see the type of laying on opponent strategy that you see in MMA. Wrestling is very high speed normally i dont know where this rumor came from that LnP is wrestling. Comments like that are completely absurd. You dont call hugging someone a clinch do you?
 
#32 · (Edited)
It's been mentioned before that the full guard position in BJJ should count as much as a wrestler on top not doing any damage.

Now, IMO I think a BJJ fighter pulling guard should count as much as a wrestler getting a takedown. Hypothetically, if nothing happens after this, I say the BJJ fighter who pulled guard should win the round. Obviously, the fight would be stood up well before the round ended which leads to the next scoring sequence.

I say GnP should count as much as submission attempts. How much GnP to equal one submission attempt would be determined in the eyes of the judges.

Additional points would be awarded from the fighter on top who is able to pass the guard and additional points will also be awarded to the fighter on the bottom who is able to land effective strikes off of his back.

Perhaps a successful sweep from the bottom could count as much as a takedown as well.

Now with all of this being said, I think a defended takedown should also be awarded points. Definitely not as much as a successful takedown but perhaps 1/2 or 1/3 the value. Some say this shouldn't be installed because the fighter going for the takedowns is the aggressor and should be awarded the points but I don't put takedown aggression in the same light as striking aggression. A striker who throws 10 punches that are all blocked should still be awarded points rather than his opponent who successfully defended the strikes. However, when a takedown is stuffed, I feel as if the fighter who stopped it seems the more dominant one in that situation because they were able to keep the fight where they wanted it.


^^^ This is the closest set of scoring rules I could come up with that would make everything more fair for the non wrestler and also leave them with no more excuses.

This is also coming from a guy who wrestled all his life :)
 
#33 ·
The takedown definitely should count for something. Its an extremely demanding physical motion, it takes all kinds of different muscles and nerves firing just the right way, at just the right intensly.

But top control is what is overrated. The guard position (on the top or the bottom) should not be considered dominant. What one does in the guard is what matters. The difference would be Jones vs Guida. The guard itself, which is where most grinders win, should be considered a neutral. EFFECTIVE STRIKING in the guard should gain points, as well as any position, side control, half guard, etc, should gain favor with the judges.

TDD isn't the problem. Overrating the guard is the problem with grappling in MMA.
 
#36 ·
This sport is mixed martial arts, if someone wants to take you down and control you for the whole fight while laying on top of you, you should learn to prevent the takedown and learn to stand back up.

With that said, if you do fight like this, expect to lose fans, and like Fitch, not get your title shot. This is a sport, this is not "fighting". We call it fighting, but it's not "fighting". It's a sport, and in a sport, you have fans, and these fans need to be entertained in order to keep the sport alive.

Take someone down and hold them for the duration of the fight, just don't expect to get your title shot anytime soon or any sort of solid fan base.

A boring fighter is a boring fighter, no one wants that as a champion, let's be real here.
 
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