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5 of 8 Champs Are Wrestlers, Is It The Dominant Fighting Style?

5K views 55 replies 26 participants last post by  Voiceless 
#1 ·
Demetrious Johnson, Dominic Cruz, Benson Henderson, GSP and Jon Jones are all wrestlers and dominant champions. Is it safe to say that wrestling is the # 1 fighting style on which to build a base as a true champion?
 
#2 ·
I think being complete is more essential, Mighty Mouse is fast as hell and is well rounded, Cruz has very good footwork, GSP can do it, all Ben has good kicks, and Jones is turning into a good striker, Junior and Aldo aren't wrestlers but have developed world class TDD and are black belts in ju-jitsu.
 
#3 ·
This. Among great wrestling is essential but its all the other parts that made those guys champs. Where are the pure wrestlers? Middle of the pack.

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#4 ·
Having great wrestling and TDD is probably the most important thing to being successful in MMA. At least, its the best style to have because its probably the hardest/longest to master. What I'm trying to say is that striking can come with experience and practicing in the gym, and you can get by with average striking for a bit where as average wrestling won't take you very far the higher in the standings you go.
 
#6 ·
I also thought GSP was a karate guy and has developed his wrestling since coming to MMA. He is the best at combining striking, wrestling, BJJ and wrestling.

If the OP means that wrestling is the best base to transfer to MMA with then yes. They have something a certain je ne sais quoi in training and learning new techniques that makes them a hair better than the rest of the pack of IMHO.
 
#8 ·
Anderson is a rare fighter and these type of fighters don't come around very often. To make a point though, he hasn't faced a top class wrestler with great JJ defense. He faced Sonnen which was his toughest test the first time around, but Sonnen has always been known to have horrible JJ defense.
 
#10 ·
No. MMA goes through cycles where different styles work in different divisions. It isn't uncommon to have a number of fighters with similar backgrounds all winning titles. By the way, there are four BJJ blackbelts holding belts right now (JDS, Silva, St. Pierre, and Aldo), five if you count Barao... so... not really a substantive difference.
 
#14 ·
I wouldn't call those BJJ guys tho. JDS is primarily a boxer, Silva and Also are MT guys, and St. Pierre is a karate that guy that has developed into one hell of a MMA practitioner. The fact they have BJJ blackbelts doesn't matter to me its not what got them the titles per say. It has helped them keep the titles sure but they're not straight BJJ guys like Maia or Souza.
 
#11 ·
Just keep in mind that every highly successful MMA practioner today has been forced to be well-rounded. This is not the late 80's/ early 90's any more. Back then there was a movement to see which discipline was most valuable and successful. What competetive MMA has shown us is that one must be capable and versed in many disciplines to be sucessful in MMA. That's why it's called Mixed Martial Arts.

Having said that, I also do think that a solid wrestling base prepares an MMA fighter with fundamentals of body control, leverage, and timing timing that can be applied in other disciplines. For example, IMHO GSP's wrestling, while outstanding, is nothing new or noteworthy. what sets him apart is his timing. Again, IMHO....GSP has top-notch, but not phenominal striking...but his timing on his takedowns is what makes him hard ot deal with. Add to that the fact that he focuses on top control as much as possible, even to the extent of giving up a risky, but fight-ending move, and he's turned into a fighter who makes the fight happen on HIS terms. Wrestling can be used to cover holes in other areas as well.

So to answer your original question... I think wrestling is one of three foundational concepts in today's MMA. Wrestling, striking, and cardio/athleticism. You must be average or better in all three in order to compete sucessfully in today's MMA world.

Just my opinion.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Just keep in mind that every highly successful MMA practioner today has been forced to be well-rounded. This is not the late 80's/ early 90's any more. Back then there was a movement to see which discipline was most valuable and successful .


Correct.
And that question was answered quite clearly back then: Jiu Jitsu.

Today, as you mentioned, cross training will prevent this kind of single discipline dominance.
 
#41 ·
That is precisely why I qualified the post with Wrestling as a base and not the only fighting style. I think the fundamental advantage a high caliber wrestler has is the ability to instantaneously take the fight to the ground and change the course of the fight. This dynamic and explosive action throws opponents off while they attempt to adjust their game plan, whether that be a striker or BJJ guy.
 
#23 ·
Wrestling in high school is not a serious athletic base.

High school wrestling is extremely low level, shitloads of guys wrestled in HS. Some of them are the sort of guys that get taken down repeatedly in every fight and just like to throw hays.

Which is why Mighty Mouse gets outwrestled so much by other non-collegiate wrestlers. His wrestling is just good.....nothing special.

His game really is more kickboxing anyway.


If you are just going on what they trained in first, then Benson is technically a TKD fighter...but of course that's not accurate because it's inane....much like calling guys like Cruz and Johnson...guys who started MMA as kids, "wrestlers".

Phil Davis is a wrestler. He started MMA when he was a grown man and was about 24/25.

Chris Weidman is a wrestler.


GSP, Cruz, Johnson, and arguably Jones are not.
 
#24 ·
If you are just going on what they trained in first, then Benson is technically a TKD fighter..
yeah, that was kinda what I was getting at. Their base discipline.. Like GSP is a karate fighter, but he hardly shows that anymore.

FOLKstyle....
oops, yeah... sorry about that. In my mind folk- and freestyle are kinda the same thing, which they obviously are not. Still more similar than greco-roman.
 
#26 ·
Base is not very relevant.

It's the most overrated and overestimated aspect of MMA development.

What's relevant is what a fighter's focus is and aptitude for something in between the ages of about 16-24, on average.

No one would call Jose Aldo Jr a BJJ fighter although he didn't start training striking until he started fighting.


Junior Dos Santos was basically a wrestler until he started honing in his boxing skills with Luis Dorea.
 
#27 ·
good point, and hence also why I mentioned GSP. He's basically a wrestler with boxing these days. And Nick Diaz who is basically a boxer who comes from a BJJ background.
 
#30 ·
The main reason why guys like Phil Davis and Palhares don't get better is because they actually ARE "wrestlers" and "BJJ" fighters.

They are specialists.

Anyone who comes into MMA in their mid to late 20s with a dedicated competition career in a single martial art is going to have difficulty picking the other aspects up with few exceptions to guys who are really athletic or really apt, like Frankie Edgar, Chris Weidman, Jon Fitch.

This is why guys like Cain, Chael, etc are only decent strikers that don't have good submissions but have some of the best wrestling around and beat the hell out of people anyway.


The key is, just like any other sport, to start honing your skills when you are young.

Dan Cormier probably has the best boxing for an older fighter that came in as a specialist, but that's also in a division of the worst athletes, and against the likes of Bigfoot and Josh Barnett. I remember him fighting Devin Cole and looking very unimpressive and just trying to basically takedown and lay in guard for a decision win.



I think the sort of way "bases" come into play is very minor, yet still somewhat important. Obviously Benson's kicking skills and range that he fights from come from his early, prepubescent training in TKD.....even though relatively that's a lesser part of his game.

His biggest MMA skills he developed was his wrestling that he developed in college. His lack of timing is pretty evident and is largely due to not having early training in real striking.

GSP had a karate base but he switched his FOCUS to wresting and submission grappling presumably because he didn't like getting hit. We still see the karate training with the sort of range he keeps and the occasional kicks he throws, but it's secondary because his focus shifted when he was in his early 20s.

And this pretty much goes on and on...
 
#32 ·
GSP doesn't really come from a pure wrestling background. He started with Karate, and then BJJ and wrestling, as well as boxing. If there is anyone that is a jack-of-all trades, I'd say it's GSP. He's trained in a lot of disciplines from a young age, not just wrestling like a Koscheck or Lesnar, or many other high school / collegiate wrestlers. I don't even think he did any amateur / pro wrestling -- just trained. Saying GSP comes from a wrestling background isn't really accurate to me. He just happens to be very skilled at it.

If you look at pure wrestlers who are stepping into the MMA game, many of them are in the middle of the pack (somebody said this already) - i.e. I think of Koscheck. Koscheck entered the sport as basically a wrestler with not much else. He's worked on his stand up over the years, but really relies on a heavy right hand more than movement, combinations, etc.

But to answer the question in the thread title, yes, wrestling is largely considered the dominant fighting style for a number of reasons. If you can secure a takedown you are controlling the fight (i.e. likely winning on points), probably not taking any significant damage, probably landing strikes of your own from the top -- and again, and most importantly -- controlling the fight in the judges eyes.

Worst comes to worst, if you are scoring the takedowns but not advancing position, landing good strikes or getting any submission attempts -- you can just lay and pray and still pretty much be guaranteed the win, based on points. Typically not a popular method of winning, but if you're outclassed in the stand-up it's a safe way to grind out a fight.
 
#33 ·
Hendo has a wrestling background but his MMA fighting style is not focused on wrestling.

GSP did many disciplines before doing any wrestling. But his game plan relies heavy on wrestling.

It's not really the norm, but there are still plenty of guys like that. Chuck later in his career was obviously more focused on striking with wrestling being used more for defense. But if you want to throw around labels then right now I would call GSP a "wrestler" and Hendo a "striker". Because that is what their game plans focus on.
 
#37 ·
GSP did many disciplines before doing any wrestling. But his game plan relies heavy on wrestling.
It doesn't though, it depends on who he is fighting. Against Shields and Koscheck II, both full 5 round fights, 50 minutes of fighting, how much time was spent on the ground? In Shields I think it was literally zero, against Koscheck maybe a couple minutes. That is more than three full fights (3 round fights) where GSP did nothing but strike.

His gameplan is simply do whatever his opponent is worst at and he happens to have the wrestling to pull that off if that is their weakness. I really wouldn't call him a wrestler as a base.
 
#34 ·
You can roughly make that case for any of the "core" skillsets of MMA - Wrestling, BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai/Kickboxing.

4 of the current champs are BJJ blackbelts (GSP, JDS, Anderson, Aldo)

3 have elite Muay Thai and kickboxing backgrounds or skills (Anderson, GSP, Aldo). You could argue that Jones has excellent Muay Thai as well so that would be 4.

JDS was the Brazilian boxing champ I hear, and Cruz/Mighty mouse have primarily boxing centric wins even with their wrestling backgrounds.

I'd say you basically need all 4 of these core skillsets as much as possible, and the better you are at all of them combined, and the more well rounded you are, the more likely you are to be elite.

Most other martial arts are pretty watered down though and not really needed.. maybe a bit of Judo is nice but that's about it.
 
#36 ·
Compensation is a big part of it. I think a wrestling base compensates for weaknesses in other areas better, that's why it is so dominant. A great striker who is weak on the ground can stuff several takedowns, and still lose the round if he gets taken down on the 3rd 4th 5th try and probably won't get back up ever, they can't compensate as well.

A wrestler can have lousy striking and still hurt people with a big shot if the wrestler has a decent chin and can take some shots. Kos for instance, is a god awful striker, but still knocks people out sometimes. Strikers don't suddenly land a 'lucky' takedown against a great wrestler, it's practically unheard of, and even if they did, a superior ground guy would just get back up.
 
#40 ·
Strikers don't suddenly land a 'lucky' takedown against a great wrestler, it's practically unheard of, and even if they did, a superior ground guy would just get back up.
That's not everyday news, indeed, but surprise is a factor that eventually pays off when a striker do the unthinkable against a wrestler, like JDS taking Carwin down or Machida taking Tito down.

To a wrestler to forseen to be taken down by a striker would be the same as a striker to forseen a wrestler going for a spinning back fist, aside Anderson's clairevoyance, of course.
 
#42 ·
I like how GSP is classified as a wrestler.

5/8 of the champs use wrestling offensively (5/10 if you count Barao and Rousey) to some extent. Calling it the dominant fighting style is silly.

If it were the dominant style world-class wrestlers would "dominate" every division. 0/10 of the champs are world-class wrestlers and that isn't even debatable really....
 
#43 ·
It is very difficult for people to grasp the notion that a fighter can be prominent in one fighting style when we are talking MMA, the very definition being MIXED martial arts. However it is a fact.

Since GSP considered wrestling in the Olympics, I think, adds some legitimacy to him being classified as a wrestler. Henderson really began his fighting career in highschool and college as a wrestler.

The thread is interesting because the ongoing discussions revolving around best fighting styles is a classic and given the current division champs, it's a great time to bring it up.
 
#47 ·
I would say wrestling is the best base when you are firs breaking in to MMA but you have to develop other skills along the way because just wrestling won't be enough.

Of all the GOATs it seems like nost of them were wrestlers with MT and BJJ tied in second.

GSP
Hendo
Bendo
Coleman
Shamrok Bros
The Natural
Tito
Hughes
Lidell (though he never really used it)

They all started out as wrestlers or predominately use wresting in their style.

However really its hard to say their a wrestler when their really an MMA fighter
 
#50 ·
Wrestling is definitely the best when it is complimenting something else IMO. Just due to the fact that as others have mentioned, it allows the fighter to dictate where a fight takes place.

But a pure wrestler would not fair all that well. I mean look at Brock, sure he had a few good wins, but all in all, with just the wrestling really at an elite level, he would get smoked trying to run at the title now even if he was 100%


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