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Where was JDS jiu jitsu??

5K views 47 replies 31 participants last post by  LL 
#1 ·
JDS doesn't fight like a guy with a black belt in jiu jitsu, imo. In fact, I've never seen him work from his guard. Instead, when got taken down (a lot), he fought to stand up, only to get taken down again. This is one of the most taxing things to do in MMA and had to contribute to his running out of gas.

Would he have been better off working from guard, conserving some energy and going for subs like Andy Silva?
 
#2 ·
I believe getting put on his back broke Junior mentally.

He said after the fight he didn't even try to work ju-jitsu he just wanted to get back up, and I believe that is what cost him the fight, the fact that Cain was able to break him.

They're destined to fight again though and Junior clearly knows his game needs work, ju-jitsu and learning how to fight and fight calmly off his back will be a big factor for him going forward, I hope so anyway. I'd hate to see him become the Heavyweight Rampage.
 
#3 ·
That's a good question. Junior knows what it's like to get simply overwhelmed now... in my opinion, it was a ridiculous amount of "wall and stall", but I'm a biased JDS fan, and have never cared for Cain.

Either way, I expect to see the best Junior we've ever seen his next time out, much like Cain did when he was on the other side of this equation.
 
#4 · (Edited)
There was hardly any wall and stall. When Cain had Junior up against the fence, the vast majority of the time he was dirty boxing the snot out of him and pounding on his rib cage like it was a frozen piece of beef in the chiller. When he wasn't dirty boxing, he was latching onto single legs and dumping Junior onto the mat. I counted four times throughout the fight where JDS grabbing onto the cage prevented Cain from taking him down.

As for his BJJ, as I expected, it's rubbish. There's a reason his entire career he's treated the octagon floor like deadly lava from a Sonic The Hedgehog game, because he sucks there - and like in Sonic, if he falls into that lava, it's pretty much GAME OVER.
 
#26 ·
I think he forgot to use it.
Just like he forgot to keep his ands up.

JDS was working off of his survival instinct after the right hand.
And yet he kept his hands down all the damn time.
JDS went full retard that night.

Just think that Werdum is a more interesting matchup for Cain, stylistically. I still favor Cain but I'm just tryin to see who can compete with him at this point. Based of that performance... Damn :confused02:

Idk, dude's a beast...
Ubereem and Werdum would both beat Cain.
 
#11 ·
I'm sure it's there, he was probably afraid of working off his back against a guy like Cain.

Did you guys see what Cain did to Bigfoot? How did his Black belt and working off his back turn out?

I'm wondering how many of the condescending armchair critics in here would like to "work calmly off their backs" while being massacred by Cain. Cain isn't Sonnen, his opponents look like halloween costumes after spending 5 mins on the ground with him unlike Sonnen's.

I hope JDS works on his striking defense and cardio, that was a pretty bad showing but I hope he comes back stronger for the inevitable rubber match.
 
#38 ·
I'm sure it's there, he was probably afraid of working off his back against a guy like Cain.

Did you guys see what Cain did to Bigfoot? How did his Black belt and working off his back turn out?

I'm wondering how many of the condescending armchair critics in here would like to "work calmly off their backs" while being massacred by Cain. Cain isn't Sonnen, his opponents look like halloween costumes after spending 5 mins on the ground with him unlike Sonnen's.
Yup, hanging out on the ground with Cain on top of you is almost as dumb as letting Jon Jones drop elbows on you from top position. You're gonna get hurt bad and it's gonna happen real fast, so you better get the hell out of there before you get creamed.

A real world class BJJ fighter might have a shot at working from the guard and succeeding to some degree against Cain or Jon Jones, but everyone else, black belt or not is going to get creamed.
 
#13 ·
He just got his blackbelt. I would chalk it up to lack of real life inexperience. JDS is a guy who would rather stand up and fight, and if it went to the ground he would just take the back and throw shots. He could have all that practice time, but if you dont go in a BJJ Tourney or MMA fight and grapple with someone that is going at 100% and trying to take your arm off, you are going to look a little lost when the time does come.

In a sense, im saying that having only 13 seconds total on his back before this fight could have hindered him in the end. He is going to realize he needs his BJJ now and make an effort to actually use it somewhere when he has the chance on his way back to the top.
 
#14 ·
I'm sure his gameplan was to standup. Seeing what Cain's done to guys on the ground before and the fact that Junior should have had a significant standup advantage is probably why he did stand up every time.

Not to mention, JDS was in survival mode most of the time. He reverted to what he trained to do... which was standup if taken down.
 
#15 ·
I really don't care for a 3rd fight given how one sided this beating was, hopefully reem can shake things up a bit since cormier will be a lhw, barnett is interesting too if he can fluke a TD because he has very very good top position catch wrasslin and bjj
 
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#18 ·
Just went and rewatched the fight (third time), and it's very obvious to me that Junior wanted nothing to do with Cain on top of him. Cain probably would have had 3 or 4 more takedowns if Junior wasn't holding the fence while Cain was going for it. The pace is what killed him, being on his back was just the last nail in the coffin really.
 
#19 ·
If JDS's jujitsu was better than Mir's (as his trainer said), then he certainly could've offered more resistance on the ground. I, and imo others, may have overrated JDS's jujitsu.

This could lead to an interesting match up with Werdum. Werdum just neutralizes everyone on the ground. He's one of the only fighters that welcomes a fight in his guard. Props to Cain!
 
#34 ·
If JDS's jujitsu was better than Mir's (as his trainer said), then he certainly could've offered more resistance on the ground. I, and imo others, may have overrated JDS's jujitsu.
Nothing against talking good about your student, but it shouldn't sound that ridiculous. Dos Santos never has really shown any BJJ worth talking about. As I've said here two weeks ago, recent footage of him rolling with Machida didn't show much ground fluidity. While Mir, almost TKOed and with one foot in lala-land, submitted Nogueira of all people on auto-pilot.

Dos Santos might "know" consciously all the techniques, but it's probably not "natural" to him yet. It takes years. It's like when learning a new language. You may now the grammar rules and have a big vocabulary after 3-4 years, but it takes more until you can use the language without thinking in stress situations.
 
#21 ·
well if you are smart like werdum you control the hips and use head movement and intelligent blocking and you look for an arm if you are not already holding one down to the mat or there body. So JDS should have done so if he is a nogueira black belt since that is what big nog is and was known for in pride
 
#29 ·
I guess I'm the only one who actually thinks JDS showed a very decent ground game. BJJ is not only about the guard. JDS prevented most of the guard passes, he turtled well, always worked for the same side underhook from halfguard to stand up.

He simply decided that he would be better off using his BJJ to stand up rather than remain on his back and work for submissions.

Also you can't forget that Cain is very legit on the ground aswell. Besides his wrestling credentials he also trained with Dave Camerillo for several years and is a brown belt under him. He has lethal ground and pound and superb top control. Just look at what he did to Big Foot, who is a very well respected Black Belt in his own.


One last point you have to consider is that nowadays you rarely see successfull guard work in heavyweight MMA. Mir had some success, but the submissions he got from his back weren't against the best grapplers out there. Even Brock shut him down in there second fight quite easily. Now the only guy in the heavyweight division who nowadays possesses a guard that is a real threat is Fabricio Werdum who simply is one of the best grapplers in sports JJ aswell.

In my opinion JDS had the right gameplan with getting up from his back and using his BJJ the way he did. He did not lose the fight because of his groundgame but rather because of Cain's relentless pressure and TD threat which ultimately lead to JDS being to concerned with TD defense and leaving himself open for jabs and straights by Cain.
 
#31 ·
JDS didn't go full retard. He just couldn't deal with the pressure. I'd imagine it has to throw you completely off when the other guy is on your face from the very first second. Reem did it to Lesnar and Cain did it to JDS. A fight between these two isn't going to make the distance for sure.
 
#32 ·
The pace that Cain brought was unbelievable. He just imposes his will on the best of them. I just thought that JDS could handle that. This was out of left field for me with how Cain handled him. At the same time, I've always respected Cain's relentless pace, I just didn't think he'd tool JDS on the throughout the fight that much.

I watched that Carwin fight and saw how easily he shrugged off those takedown and clinch attempts. I just assumed he could do the same with Cain. I overrated his BJJ for sure. MISTAKE! Incredible neutralization of JDS's ground game.
 
#33 ·
it wasnt the lack of bjj, that cost him this fight, it was the lack of a gameplan, well unless you call it a game plan to not jab and dont throw punches in general. He was looking for the one punch k.o, but he never got that opportunity. In the first round junior had several opportunities to jummp on cain after cain failed with a takedown, instead he chose to walk or run away. Awful game plan.

Cain on the other hand knew exactly what he had to do, he had a ganeplan from the get go and followed it. Greta performance from him.
 
#36 ·
JDS' only game plan was to try and land a quick overhand punch again because in reality that's all he's got on Cain and he knew it. JDS most definitely does not posses all the tools required to reign at the top of the HW division, that much is abundantly clear.

Cain even punished JDS at his one and only game. Cain is by far a much superior fighter.
 
#39 ·
Agreed. Looked like JDS thought he could go into the fight not having to change anything since their last encounter.

He was looking for the big shot but he couldn't get it in because of the pressure and because of his own fatigue.

It was madness to see him wind up for the big bolo uppercut when Cain would clinch with him before it could even get to chin level.

I think Cain has overall better fight IQ, and understood what mistakes he made in the first fight.

As for JDS bjj, well, like has been said, no style's adherents are created equal. He did what he was accustomed to, avoiding ground damage and getting back to the feet. Really, he did a great job despite his being gassed and dazed to fight off Cain for 5 rounds without being smothered completely or gettinkg TKO'd.
 
#37 ·
I've watched the fight a couple of times now, and was suddenly stuck suprised to realize how similar JDS's style is to Chuck Liddel - low hands, confidence in striking, heavy strikes, lots of stoppages, good TTD but ultimately flawed.

Junior will still be a force in the HW division and will always have a punchers chance, but he will never rule his division like Silva or GSP.

I read a lot about how good Junior's boxing is going into this fight... But after Saturday I must say that I don't agree. Yes, he's got excellent striking and he punches like a mule kicks (but then most HW do) but his "boxing" is horrible. Not even Ray Leonard and Ali held their hand as low and inviting as JDS. He was unable to slip punches (a boxing staple) and crumbled under pressure from the first moment of the first round. His corner were telling him to keep his hands up from the end of the first round - but when you spend all your training carrying your fists under your nipples (yep I said nipples!) it's tough to change what made you champion when it stops working for you.

One dimensional fighters have had their day - The Brock's and JDS's of this world need to realize that they need more than just one arrow in their quiver
 
#40 ·
I've watched the fight a couple of times now, and was suddenly stuck suprised to realize how similar JDS's style is to Chuck Liddel - low hands, confidence in striking, heavy strikes, lots of stoppages, good TTD but ultimately flawed.

Junior will still be a force in the HW division and will always have a punchers chance, but he will never rule his division like Silva or GSP.

I read a lot about how good Junior's boxing is going into this fight... But after Saturday I must say that I don't agree. Yes, he's got excellent striking and he punches like a mule kicks (but then most HW do) but his "boxing" is horrible. Not even Ray Leonard and Ali held their hand as low and inviting as JDS. He was unable to slip punches (a boxing staple) and crumbled under pressure from the first moment of the first round. His corner were telling him to keep his hands up from the end of the first round - but when you spend all your training carrying your fists under your nipples (yep I said nipples!) it's tough to change what made you champion when it stops working for you.

One dimensional fighters have had their day - The Brock's and JDS's of this world need to realize that they need more than just one arrow in their quiver
That's the comparison I've been making for a while too. I just don't see this great boxer that everyone is/was talking about. He has a really good jab, but other than that he is basically a brawler.

Everyone needs to calm down about how one-sided the fight was, though. JDS got tagged and never recovered - that doesn't mean that he can't beat Cain, or even that Cain is better. The score is 1-1. Cain will be about -150 on the betting lines in their next fight and JDS will come back stronger than ever. Some people are such prisoners of the moment it's ridiculous. Heavyweight fights are rarely competitive if you think about it... even when the two fighters are evenly matched.
 
#42 ·
Not everyone can be as cool and collected as Andy and you know the old saying, punch a black belt in the face and he becomes a brown belt, punch a brown belt and becomes a purple belt, etc., etc.

Just like he forgot to keep his ands up.



And yet he kept his hands down all the damn time.
JDS went full retard that night.



Ubereem and Werdum would both beat Cain.
Overeem needs to knock Cain out in the first 60 seconds else he will gas even harder than JDS did. Werdum has a decent shot of submitting Cain if he can get it to the ground, but I see Cain working Werdum up against the cage until he gasses.
 
#44 ·
Overeem needs to knock Cain out in the first 60 seconds else he will gas even harder than JDS did. Werdum has a decent shot of submitting Cain if he can get it to the ground, but I see Cain working Werdum up against the cage until he gasses.
If Cain can't get Reem on the ground in less than 2mins, he's going to shit himself.
 
#43 ·
Would you like to be the third best guy at heavyweight right now? If you beat one, you KNOW your next fight is against the other.

Outside of Cormier, who's still a cypher, what heavyweight is beating both of those guys? As for Overreem, on merit, he should be fighting Big Country. (As Dana's accountant, OTOH, Overeem gets a title fight).
 
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