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Old 11-23-2012, 01:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Killz View Post
I always thought if a BJJ guy triangled a guy in a street fight 1 of 2 things could happen.

1 - the other guys friends would stomp all over him.

2 - the other guy would pick him up and slam him into the concrete.
When I apply a triangle I usually try to hook the guy's leg with my arm on the same side that my leg is against his neck, to secure a good choking angle. Although we don't slam each other in class, I think that grip also makes it pretty hard to do that. However, grabbing his leg in that way leaves your face open for strikes from his free arm, especially if you're using your other hand to adjust your legs of pull down his head. Although someone who doesn't know how to defend a triangle won't have many seconds to do so.
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Originally Posted by FBrown View Post
I've been doing BJJ for 2 years
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Originally Posted by FBrown View Post
If you put me in a triangle, who is to say I won't just bite off your balls?
No offense, but I find it a bit unbelievable that someone who has been training bjj for 2 years would still think a triangle will put you in a position where your opponent can bite your balls.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Couchwarrior View Post
When I apply a triangle I usually try to hook the guy's leg with my arm on the same side that my leg is against his neck, to secure a good choking angle. Although we don't slam each other in class, I think that grip also makes it pretty hard to do that. However, grabbing his leg in that way leaves your face open for strikes from his free arm, especially if you're using your other hand to adjust your legs of pull down his head. Although someone who doesn't know how to defend a triangle won't have many seconds to do so.


No offense, but I find it a bit unbelievable that someone who has been training bjj for 2 years would still think a triangle will put you in a position where your opponent can bite your balls.
I've seen it happen believe it or not. There is also the possibility of someone grabbing your balls as well. Guillotine? Sure thing. I've seen guys put a thumb in the eye or the rib and that choke doesn't last long. And hey, I never claimed to be a black belt or anything (I'm a blue belt) but I've been training about 2 days a week for 2 years now and have yet to miss a day. I'm also not arguing that a pro fighter would definitely get beat in a street fight, I'm just saying it's much more possible than people like to think. There's no referee, no rules, no one to pull you off when you aren't protecting yourself.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Street fight= Anything goes.
(Biting + eye gouging + strikes + nutts kicking) < (Biting + eye gouging + strikes + nutts kicking + any BJJ)

BTW. BJJ self defense classes will include striking avoidance and concrete pavement issues.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If Im in a street fight and its just the 2 of us im going straight for the takedown mount then headbuts and eye gouging, if he has his friends then im keeping it standing trying to stick and move carefully keeping his friends in the corner of my eye
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FBrown View Post
I've seen it happen believe it or not. There is also the possibility of someone grabbing your balls as well. Guillotine? Sure thing. I've seen guys put a thumb in the eye or the rib and that choke doesn't last long. And hey, I never claimed to be a black belt or anything (I'm a blue belt) but I've been training about 2 days a week for 2 years now and have yet to miss a day. I'm also not arguing that a pro fighter would definitely get beat in a street fight, I'm just saying it's much more possible than people like to think. There's no referee, no rules, no one to pull you off when you aren't protecting yourself.
It's never happened off of a proper triangle. Even if we ignore the fact that the guy would have to chew through his own arm first, that scenario still doesnt agree with anatomy. You know, unless your balls are somehow above your pelvic bone...

Someone grabbing your nuts is a possibility...vaguely. I mean, it'd be hard, but theoretically possible. Thankfully, I don't tend to get into streetfights while naked. If you do, you have a lot to reconsider about your lifestyle -- and it goes far beyond the realm of bjj. Because, you know, grabbing nuts through jeans (from that position especially) doesnt work as well as you might think.

Furthermore, if someone's in a tight triangle, he's going out in 5-10 seconds. Even if what you're suggesting is feasible, someone could endure some pain for that amount of time. Plus, cutting the angle and underhooking the leg or free arm will negate both slams and/or nut grabs.

As for guillotines, thumb in the ribs? Seriously? In adrenaline fueled scenarios, people have been known to not even notice getting stabbed... but those damn rib pokes! They instantaneously halt any action!

The other problem with all of this is that, again, a proper submission has someone passing out within seconds. An untrained guy, who's never been in this situation before, will almost always tweak out and just try to pull your arm or legs off of him. If you're in a solid guillotine (you know, the kind which you tap to in under 2 seconds), you won't have enough time to blindly find someone's eyes or cause enough pain with your thumb or whatever.

While I do agree with you that anything can happen and training -- or even being an accomplished pro -- doesn't make you invincible in a street fight, most of the scenarios you've listed fall soundly into the 'lol no' category.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Couchwarrior View Post
When I apply a triangle I usually try to hook the guy's leg with my arm on the same side that my leg is against his neck, to secure a good choking angle. Although we don't slam each other in class, I think that grip also makes it pretty hard to do that. However, grabbing his leg in that way leaves your face open for strikes from his free arm, especially if you're using your other hand to adjust your legs of pull down his head. Although someone who doesn't know how to defend a triangle won't have many seconds to do so.
Try to not align you in the same direction as your opponent when doing the triangle, but align your body in angle towards the side of his free arm. That way he will not be able to use his strong erector muscles in a favorable way and it will off-balance any pick up attempt. And immediately straighten your back if he attempts to stand up, so you increase the leverage of your body weight on him.

Anyways, if you're about the same weight, an average untrained opponent won't pick you up to slam you the way a super strong elite athlete like Quinton Jackson would do. If he tried, an average person probably would just instantly get a lumbar disc herniation.

So being picked up and slammed wouldn't be that much of a concern. On the ground, I'd be much more concerned about my opponent's friends that could come around the corner and start to jump on my head.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
It's never happened off of a proper triangle. Even if we ignore the fact that the guy would have to chew through his own arm first, that scenario still doesnt agree with anatomy. You know, unless your balls are somehow above your pelvic bone...

Someone grabbing your nuts is a possibility...vaguely. I mean, it'd be hard, but theoretically possible. Thankfully, I don't tend to get into streetfights while naked. If you do, you have a lot to reconsider about your lifestyle -- and it goes far beyond the realm of bjj. Because, you know, grabbing nuts through jeans (from that position especially) doesnt work as well as you might think.

Furthermore, if someone's in a tight triangle, he's going out in 5-10 seconds. Even if what you're suggesting is feasible, someone could endure some pain for that amount of time. Plus, cutting the angle and underhooking the leg or free arm will negate both slams and/or nut grabs.

As for guillotines, thumb in the ribs? Seriously? In adrenaline fueled scenarios, people have been known to not even notice getting stabbed... but those damn rib pokes! They instantaneously halt any action!

The other problem with all of this is that, again, a proper submission has someone passing out within seconds. An untrained guy, who's never been in this situation before, will almost always tweak out and just try to pull your arm or legs off of him. If you're in a solid guillotine (you know, the kind which you tap to in under 2 seconds), you won't have enough time to blindly find someone's eyes or cause enough pain with your thumb or whatever.

While I do agree with you that anything can happen and training -- or even being an accomplished pro -- doesn't make you invincible in a street fight, most of the scenarios you've listed fall soundly into the 'lol no' category.
I'd LOVE for you to meet my sensei. He's a "MMA doesnt work" kind of guy. Guillotine = Eyes being ripped out. You go for a triangle on the street? Have fun with that shark attack bite on the side of your leg for the rest of your life. MMA Vs Street Fighter is only relevent as in trained fighter Vs untrained fighter. Someone who fights, even the simple form of karate I also do, gives me the reactions to dodge the reckless haymakers people throw on the street. We do wrist locks and stuff which at least would be able to get their hand off my chest (for some reason people fight with one hand grabbing you and the other with shit punches lmao). Thats really the only difference, fight experience and reactions. Everything is more natural to someone training. If its a real fight, cardio probably wont come in cause you're either knocking someone out or being knocked out. Techniques like submissions and takedowns dont work, because someone will bite the shit out of you if you have them trapped, and I dont mean like the dude bit on TUF, I mean chunks.

And thats me as a white belt (missed grading ) saying that. I know from experience that the high grades wouldnt be phased by someone trying MMA on the streets because the high grades have trained even as simple things as finger breaking, groin grabs, eye rakes and everything that would be "against the rules" in MMA. I mean it's not hard to do it, but if you're going for what you mentioned, triangles and guillotines, you're probably going to be sorry immediatley after it. Best bet is to use your natural fighting experience to put the guy away with punches.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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(regurgitating my JuJitsu teacher) Simple wins fights, no matter what level you are you're going to need to rely on the white belt moves, because that's your base and that's where you need to be able to make the right move on instinct.

As a white belt where I train we don't learn submissions, they're not the basics. The basics are break-falls, movement, striking, positioning, and keeping your hands up.
Can a submission win a fight, yes, is it always going to be ideal, no. The more training and experience you have the better off you should be on average.

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Old 11-30-2012, 12:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
It's never happened off of a proper triangle. Even if we ignore the fact that the guy would have to chew through his own arm first, that scenario still doesnt agree with anatomy. You know, unless your balls are somehow above your pelvic bone...

Someone grabbing your nuts is a possibility...vaguely. I mean, it'd be hard, but theoretically possible. Thankfully, I don't tend to get into streetfights while naked. If you do, you have a lot to reconsider about your lifestyle -- and it goes far beyond the realm of bjj. Because, you know, grabbing nuts through jeans (from that position especially) doesnt work as well as you might think.

Furthermore, if someone's in a tight triangle, he's going out in 5-10 seconds. Even if what you're suggesting is feasible, someone could endure some pain for that amount of time. Plus, cutting the angle and underhooking the leg or free arm will negate both slams and/or nut grabs.

As for guillotines, thumb in the ribs? Seriously? In adrenaline fueled scenarios, people have been known to not even notice getting stabbed... but those damn rib pokes! They instantaneously halt any action!

The other problem with all of this is that, again, a proper submission has someone passing out within seconds. An untrained guy, who's never been in this situation before, will almost always tweak out and just try to pull your arm or legs off of him. If you're in a solid guillotine (you know, the kind which you tap to in under 2 seconds), you won't have enough time to blindly find someone's eyes or cause enough pain with your thumb or whatever.

While I do agree with you that anything can happen and training -- or even being an accomplished pro -- doesn't make you invincible in a street fight, most of the scenarios you've listed fall soundly into the 'lol no' category.
True dat. I've never seen anyone bite someone in a street, bar, club, restaurant, cafe...any fight for that matter. I've seen people getting shanked, hit in the head with baseball bats w/ head split open, bottles galore, stools, chairs, head butt, flying soccer kick, stomps, and pretty much everything else you can imagine. But never biting, eye guaging, pokes in the ribs (lolz), and thankfully no curb stomping.
That's like grade school stuff man. When people get into holds biting won't make the other guy release it. You're going to sleep.

One thing Kin speaks from experience is adrenaline. ANYONE who's done battle can agree. You're impervious to gun shot wounds and stab wounds for less than a minute...then you'll pass out from blood loss. You're fighting for your life so you're in a fight or flight mode.

Had an acquaintance who got jacked in an alley and fought off three dudes getting punctured in the lung and slashed in his arm blocking it...knocking out all three then passing out to the ER. We were practicing different moves, trading war stories and he showed me his narly scars.

Anyways you shouldn't be getting into street fights cuz almost always someone else has a weapon or a larger crew than you. But hey if you want to get an adrenaline rush be my guest.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernaculum View Post
(regurgitating my JuJitsu teacher) Simple wins fights, no matter what level you are you're going to need to rely on the white belt moves, because that's your base and that's where you need to be able to make the right move on instinct.

As a white belt where I train we don't learn submissions, they're not the basics. The basics are break-falls, movement, striking, positioning, and keeping your hands up.
Can a submission win a fight, yes, is it always going to be ideal, no. The more training and experience you have the better off you should be on average.
Exact same with me.

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Originally Posted by No_Mercy View Post
True dat. I've never seen anyone bite someone in a street, bar, club, restaurant, cafe...any fight for that matter. I've seen people getting shanked, hit in the head with baseball bats w/ head split open, bottles galore, stools, chairs, head butt, flying soccer kick, stomps, and pretty much everything else you can imagine. But never biting, eye guaging, pokes in the ribs (lolz), and thankfully no curb stomping.
That's like grade school stuff man. When people get into holds biting won't make the other guy release it. You're going to sleep.

One thing Kin speaks from experience is adrenaline. ANYONE who's done battle can agree. You're impervious to gun shot wounds and stab wounds for less than a minute...then you'll pass out from blood loss. You're fighting for your life so you're in a fight or flight mode.

Had an acquaintance who got jacked in an alley and fought off three dudes getting punctured in the lung and slashed in his arm blocking it...knocking out all three then passing out to the ER. We were practicing different moves, trading war stories and he showed me his narly scars.

Anyways you shouldn't be getting into street fights cuz almost always someone else has a weapon or a larger crew than you. But hey if you want to get an adrenaline rush be my guest.
"You're fighting for your life so you're in a fight or flight mode."

"That's like grade school stuff man."

Dont you feel this contradicts? You're right with your first part, you're fighting for your life. In that case, I couldn't care less if it was grade school, playschool, high school or driving school, if something works, I'll use it. Someone has you in a triangle in a fight right? Well, you dont know him, so for all you know he's literally going to choke you to death. I dont know if you've ever been choked out of a controlled enviroment, but that sudden panic will make you do anything you can. Biting and groin grabs are pretty much your only options there.

And say you get someone in a triangle and put them to sleep. You say you wont let go because of the adrenaline of the fight. Alright, but heres the situation. He bites you, takes a huge chunk out your leg (5-10 seconds is a HUGE amount of time), and you put him to sleep. In 10 minutes he wakes up and is fine, but you've got a hole the size of a mouth removed for the rest of your life. I consider him to have bested that exchange.

You're taking fighting as in there is a winner and loser. "Thats grade school stuff". If you actually know fighting (which you might well), you'll know that respect goes out the window. Unless you're still in high school, respect for winning a fight doesnt exist out of sports and regulated compitition. If this is a hate triggered fight, you're just looking to hurt someone. He knows submissions? Rib his balls off, see if he's bragging about putting you out to his mates the next day.

And I've seen someone bite someone in a fight. About 2 years ago a mate of mine got someone in a headlock (like under the arm) and was punching the other dude. He ended up having to get 7 stitches in his side after the dude went lock jaw on him. You're constrained to a point where you can only move your mouth, and you're being choked, you may aswell try and rip the dudes flesh off before he puts you out and maybe even threatens your life.

I agree that you shouldnt be getting in fights though. I'm at that stage where I love fighting, but I could NEVER start a fight. I'd feel horrible if I ever started on someone. Way too old for that bullshit, and I'm only 20. You do get those situations though where you think "I'd LOVE someone to take a dig at me right now" . And if someone has a bigger crew or a weapon, you may aswell go down swinging.
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