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Old 11-30-2012, 02:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Exact same with me.



"You're fighting for your life so you're in a fight or flight mode."

"That's like grade school stuff man."

Dont you feel this contradicts? You're right with your first part, you're fighting for your life. In that case, I couldn't care less if it was grade school, playschool, high school or driving school, if something works, I'll use it. Someone has you in a triangle in a fight right? Well, you dont know him, so for all you know he's literally going to choke you to death. I dont know if you've ever been choked out of a controlled enviroment, but that sudden panic will make you do anything you can. Biting and groin grabs are pretty much your only options there.

And say you get someone in a triangle and put them to sleep. You say you wont let go because of the adrenaline of the fight. Alright, but heres the situation. He bites you, takes a huge chunk out your leg (5-10 seconds is a HUGE amount of time), and you put him to sleep. In 10 minutes he wakes up and is fine, but you've got a hole the size of a mouth removed for the rest of your life. I consider him to have bested that exchange.

You're taking fighting as in there is a winner and loser. "Thats grade school stuff". If you actually know fighting (which you might well), you'll know that respect goes out the window. Unless you're still in high school, respect for winning a fight doesnt exist out of sports and regulated compitition. If this is a hate triggered fight, you're just looking to hurt someone. He knows submissions? Rib his balls off, see if he's bragging about putting you out to his mates the next day.

And I've seen someone bite someone in a fight. About 2 years ago a mate of mine got someone in a headlock (like under the arm) and was punching the other dude. He ended up having to get 7 stitches in his side after the dude went lock jaw on him. You're constrained to a point where you can only move your mouth, and you're being choked, you may aswell try and rip the dudes flesh off before he puts you out and maybe even threatens your life.

I agree that you shouldnt be getting in fights though. I'm at that stage where I love fighting, but I could NEVER start a fight. I'd feel horrible if I ever started on someone. Way too old for that bullshit, and I'm only 20. You do get those situations though where you think "I'd LOVE someone to take a dig at me right now" . And if someone has a bigger crew or a weapon, you may aswell go down swinging.
Without you mentioning your age I would have pegged you under 23 already. You havn't seen enough. Out of all my years I have never seen anyone eye gouge or bite someone in a fight. It could happen, I'm sure it would...but in our neck of the woods that's some rank shiet right there. Anyone who bit someone in a fight would get turned on by their own crew...lolz. Even in prison that shiet don't happen. You're gonna get stuck. I'm done with this topic.

Basically I'd take a bite vs a stab wound any day. There's more to worry about than that.

This whole MMA vs street fight is funny to me. Most were street fighters who started training to become pro fighters; Diaz Bro, Wanderlei Silva, Rampage, Lee Murray, etc.

I'll pick a seasoned MMA trained fighter any day of the week vs a random douche who's gonna try to eye guage or bite his way to win. He might bite a piece of flesh off, but that aint gonna stop you from choking or breaking his arm off. It's gonna piss you off even more.

From what I can see most are speaking from outside perspective and havn't engaged. Unless it's a hard shot you don't feel nothin' when you're scrapping that much I can tell you. It's the day after.

You seem like an alright bloke, but always got an opinion or something to say. Give it another 10 years worth of battles and you'll see...
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
I'd LOVE for you to meet my sensei. He's a "MMA doesnt work" kind of guy. Guillotine = Eyes being ripped out. You go for a triangle on the street? Have fun with that shark attack bite on the side of your leg for the rest of your life. MMA Vs Street Fighter is only relevent as in trained fighter Vs untrained fighter.
That's nonesense. I'd favor classical Jiu Jitsu over MMA for street fighting, because fighting with clothes on and fighting naked/sweaty makes a bit of a difference and where I live people wear clothes mostly all of the year, so training with Gi makes sense. And in Jiu Jitsu you train against armed attacks and tactics against multiple opponents. BUT MMA training is still superior to the majority of traditional martial arts, because a) it isn't restricted to only stand up, only take downs or only ground fighting, and b) training is usually more honest than it is actually done in most traditional martial arts classes, because it is full contact and there is a bigger focus on building physical strength.

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Someone who fights, even the simple form of karate I also do, gives me the reactions to dodge the reckless haymakers people throw on the street. We do wrist locks and stuff which at least would be able to get their hand off my chest (for some reason people fight with one hand grabbing you and the other with shit punches lmao). Thats really the only difference, fight experience and reactions. Everything is more natural to someone training. If its a real fight, cardio probably wont come in cause you're either knocking someone out or being knocked out. Techniques like submissions and takedowns dont work, because someone will bite the shit out of you if you have them trapped, and I dont mean like the dude bit on TUF, I mean chunks.
Wrong, if you don't have cardio and haven't trained how to pace yourself in full contact training and go berserk in a street fight, you will gas in 30 seconds. If you don't put your opponent away in that time, you're in big trouble. If there isn't a significant difference in fighing ability, knocking someone out isn't that easy. And if you have to run away, you really want to have better cardio than the guy with the knife who runs after you.

Thinking that take downs don't work in street fights is also wrong. Firstly, most people don't know how to defend a take down. Secondly, on the streets you don't fight on suspended ground covered with a mat. Because of that, a good take down has a pretty high chance to result in a KO. And if you know how to use take downs on the street, the guy doesn't just fall on an even concrete floor (which is already quite damaging), but on curb stone, car edges, spiky fences etc.

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And thats me as a white belt (missed grading ) saying that. I know from experience that the high grades wouldnt be phased by someone trying MMA on the streets because the high grades have trained even as simple things as finger breaking, groin grabs, eye rakes and everything that would be "against the rules" in MMA. I mean it's not hard to do it, but if you're going for what you mentioned, triangles and guillotines, you're probably going to be sorry immediatley after it. Best bet is to use your natural fighting experience to put the guy away with punches.
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Exact same with me.



"You're fighting for your life so you're in a fight or flight mode."

"That's like grade school stuff man."

Dont you feel this contradicts? You're right with your first part, you're fighting for your life. In that case, I couldn't care less if it was grade school, playschool, high school or driving school, if something works, I'll use it. Someone has you in a triangle in a fight right? Well, you dont know him, so for all you know he's literally going to choke you to death. I dont know if you've ever been choked out of a controlled enviroment, but that sudden panic will make you do anything you can. Biting and groin grabs are pretty much your only options there.
Usually they try to free themselves with their hands. I.e. RNC, eye gouging would be a reasonable strategy, but so far I have only seen people grabbing the choking arm with their hands to release the pressure when they panic. No eye gouging, no biting attemps.

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And say you get someone in a triangle and put them to sleep. You say you wont let go because of the adrenaline of the fight. Alright, but heres the situation. He bites you, takes a huge chunk out your leg (5-10 seconds is a HUGE amount of time), and you put him to sleep. In 10 minutes he wakes up and is fine, but you've got a hole the size of a mouth removed for the rest of your life. I consider him to have bested that exchange.
No, he won't - unless you fight naked. Buy a pound of meat, preferably with skin, put it under tissue you usually wear (i.e. old pair of jeans) and then try as hard as you can to bite through it. I'd wonder if you will succeed. - Of course, if someone bites you, even through clothing, it will leave a fine haematoma, but he won't bite a chunk out of you.

Quote:
You're taking fighting as in there is a winner and loser. "Thats grade school stuff". If you actually know fighting (which you might well), you'll know that respect goes out the window. Unless you're still in high school, respect for winning a fight doesnt exist out of sports and regulated compitition. If this is a hate triggered fight, you're just looking to hurt someone. He knows submissions? Rib his balls off, see if he's bragging about putting you out to his mates the next day.

And I've seen someone bite someone in a fight. About 2 years ago a mate of mine got someone in a headlock (like under the arm) and was punching the other dude. He ended up having to get 7 stitches in his side after the dude went lock jaw on him. You're constrained to a point where you can only move your mouth, and you're being choked, you may aswell try and rip the dudes flesh off before he puts you out and maybe even threatens your life.

I agree that you shouldnt be getting in fights though. I'm at that stage where I love fighting, but I could NEVER start a fight. I'd feel horrible if I ever started on someone. Way too old for that bullshit, and I'm only 20. You do get those situations though where you think "I'd LOVE someone to take a dig at me right now" . And if someone has a bigger crew or a weapon, you may aswell go down swinging.
Yes, you should avoid getting into fights. As long as you're a decent person and not out there to beat other people up, you CANNOT win a street fight. You ONLY can minimize the damage done to you or those you're protecting. Even if you get out of the situation without physical harm, it will at least affect your mood for a while if not even cause psychological trauma (with effects like sleeplessness, petulance, anxiety etc.).
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by No_Mercy View Post
Without you mentioning your age I would have pegged you under 23 already. You havn't seen enough. Out of all my years I have never seen anyone eye gouge or bite someone in a fight. It could happen, I'm sure it would...but in our neck of the woods that's some rank shiet right there. Anyone who bit someone in a fight would get turned on by their own crew...lolz. Even in prison that shiet don't happen. You're gonna get stuck. I'm done with this topic.

20. And there was rank shit here but it goes with high school really. There is no longer a rank or respect system. If people are fighting, and I dont mean having a fair fight to see whos best, I mean a FIGHT, then anything goes. "Crews" dont exist at 20 now. I mean you have a group of mates but its no longer an everyone jumps in for everyone kind of deal. I mean even if I head out to the pub it's like one or two mates tops these days. The crew shit caused more problems in the first place. And in prison, based on prison shows I watch , biting happens A LOT.

Basically I'd take a bite vs a stab wound any day. There's more to worry about than that.

Of course, but I mean you're not going to triangle a dude with a knife either...you're going to give him whatever he wants...regardless of training or not.

This whole MMA vs street fight is funny to me. Most were street fighters who started training to become pro fighters; Diaz Bro, Wanderlei Silva, Rampage, Lee Murray, etc.

Agreed. There are two kinds of MMA fighters. Street fighters and martial artists. A street fighter can train martial arts, but at the end of the day he was always the guy swinging punches in the park while the martial artist didnt even tell people he trained.

I'll pick a seasoned MMA trained fighter any day of the week vs a random douche who's gonna try to eye guage or bite his way to win. He might bite a piece of flesh off, but that aint gonna stop you from choking or breaking his arm off. It's gonna piss you off even more.

But theres choking again. Why are you going for that? Again, triangle = sleep for the guy receiving, probably serious scarring for the guy attacking. Seasoned MMA fighter wins based on reactions, experience, ability to take a punch etc. (Although at the end of the day random douche might just KO you with one punch).

From what I can see most are speaking from outside perspective and havn't engaged. Unless it's a hard shot you don't feel nothin' when you're scrapping that much I can tell you. It's the day after.

I know the feeling lmao. Got photos from where I thought I took one dig where like 7 guys where on me. Thought I must have been slipping and ducking on some Mayweather shit. Looked at the pics the next day and unless the dudes fist his like 7 different places on my face, I got punched like fuk haha.

You seem like an alright bloke, but always got an opinion or something to say. Give it another 10 years worth of battles and you'll see...

That I do . Meh, we're on the net, why not throw in a 2 cents to everything you know. I'm done with my battles. Got my 10 years under the belt already and hopefully dont need anymore, on the street anyways. A few years ago I got bottled and got the scars on my face still. Pretty much decided to call it quits and only ever fight if my backs against the wall really. Doing two martial arts now and wouldnt mind an old MMA fight or two some day but when it comes to street fighting, I could KO the dude, but he could have still bottled me before it and its not worth it in the end.
Other guy, I'll reply to you next...
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Other guy, I'll reply to you next...
Then you know what I mean. It's more of a mental thing whether you win or lose. Not a good positive vibe. It's fun, exciting even, but after awhile...eh...I'd rather make money and chase tail.

Just read this. Thought it was fitting for this thread. Even he smartened up.

AFTER GETTING SHOT & GOING THROUGH ADDICTION, TIM MEANS BUILDING UFC CAREER

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Aft...C-Career-47749
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:14 PM   #25 (permalink)
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That's nonesense. I'd favor classical Jiu Jitsu over MMA for street fighting, because fighting with clothes on and fighting naked/sweaty makes a bit of a difference and where I live people wear clothes mostly all of the year, so training with Gi makes sense. And in Jiu Jitsu you train against armed attacks and tactics against multiple opponents. BUT MMA training is still superior to the majority of traditional martial arts, because a) it isn't restricted to only stand up, only take downs or only ground fighting, and b) training is usually more honest than it is actually done in most traditional martial arts classes, because it is full contact and there is a bigger focus on building physical strength.

I dont get how any of this is relevent to what I said. But as with JJ training against multiple opponents and arm attacks, yeah sure, that stuff works...but are you a master of it? If not, it's not that effective. Again, the main training will be awareness and experience in those situations. Takedowns and stuff are alright in a street fight, but generally it just happens. You're usually not standing in the middle of an open field at the time. You try and take a dude down and you probably go against a wall, and you only have so much time before someone tries to break it up or the cops come. Best thing in a street fight is near enough always to keep it standing and for a trained fighter, to use his ability to see punches coming and avoid them to make the difference and gap between a trained and untrained fighter becoming very clear. My mate said 3 people attacked him a few months ago. From karate sparring, which is jabbing and straights, he said their haymakers were SO easy to avoid, and he never got caught by one until they were stopped by someone passing by. Chokes and shit only work when you've been training them daily for years upon years, and I mean martial arts chokes. If you're training your guillotine in MMA class, you're training for sport, not self defence, which is where "dirty" shit catches you off guard.

Wrong, if you don't have cardio and haven't trained how to pace yourself in full contact training and go berserk in a street fight, you will gas in 30 seconds. If you don't put your opponent away in that time, you're in big trouble. If there isn't a significant difference in fighing ability, knocking someone out isn't that easy. And if you have to run away, you really want to have better cardio than the guy with the knife who runs after you.

Theres a difference between going all out and street fighting. I wasnt meaning swing for the fences Leben style. I mean MMA cardio and general stamina. You dont need CARDIO because you're not going to be fighting a 25 minute fight. Shit will be over within 5 minutes 90% of the time. I dont know if you have it wherever you're from,. but if you watch the traveller fights, these are guys who hit the punchbag at home and thats about it. They fight for ages because they arent just swinging like mad cnts, but jabbing and picking shots. The trained fighter will do that, and if he can punch well, and is against a general non trained fighter, he will probably knock him out or make him quit quite quickly so cardio doesnt really come into it.

Thinking that take downs don't work in street fights is also wrong. Firstly, most people don't know how to defend a take down. Secondly, on the streets you don't fight on suspended ground covered with a mat. Because of that, a good take down has a pretty high chance to result in a KO. And if you know how to use take downs on the street, the guy doesn't just fall on an even concrete floor (which is already quite damaging), but on curb stone, car edges, spiky fences etc.

If you hold him down and he cant move, desperation sets in. In MMA, this means submissions and attempts to get up. In a real life fight, this means trying to bite your face off. You might be a hardy guy for all I know, but someone starts biting your cheek off you're going to freak the fuk out. Just human nature. In MMA guys drop for like 2mins with a groin shot, wait till some dudes trying to rip them off.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by No_Mercy View Post
Then you know what I mean. It's more of a mental thing whether you win or lose. Not a good positive vibe. It's fun, exciting even, but after awhile...eh...I'd rather make money and chase tail.

Just read this. Thought it was fitting for this thread. Even he smartened up.

AFTER GETTING SHOT & GOING THROUGH ADDICTION, TIM MEANS BUILDING UFC CAREER

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Aft...C-Career-47749
I dont see winning and losing in a street fight. If I'm going to fight at this age, I'm going to be in a position where someone has done something to me to make me flip. Wether it's taking a dig at me, bottling me, hitting a girl or something, I'm not focusing on winning. He could smash my face in, break my jaw, put me in a coma, but at the end of the day my only goal will be to hurt him. I'm willing to take the pain (in those situations, please dont hurt me on a regular day ) as long as I get to give them some in the process.

And yeah I'm with you at the end. For a guy who's on welfare and cant get sex to save himself, I'm pretty focused on money and puntang

Will read it now. As you can see, Tim Means is an exclusive member of Team CB, check the avy
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:45 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'd LOVE for you to meet my sensei. He's a "MMA doesnt work" kind of guy. Guillotine = Eyes being ripped out. You go for a triangle on the street? Have fun with that shark attack bite on the side of your leg for the rest of your life. MMA Vs Street Fighter is only relevent as in trained fighter Vs untrained fighter. Someone who fights, even the simple form of karate I also do, gives me the reactions to dodge the reckless haymakers people throw on the street. We do wrist locks and stuff which at least would be able to get their hand off my chest (for some reason people fight with one hand grabbing you and the other with shit punches lmao). Thats really the only difference, fight experience and reactions. Everything is more natural to someone training. If its a real fight, cardio probably wont come in cause you're either knocking someone out or being knocked out. Techniques like submissions and takedowns dont work, because someone will bite the shit out of you if you have them trapped, and I dont mean like the dude bit on TUF, I mean chunks.

And thats me as a white belt (missed grading ) saying that. I know from experience that the high grades wouldnt be phased by someone trying MMA on the streets because the high grades have trained even as simple things as finger breaking, groin grabs, eye rakes and everything that would be "against the rules" in MMA. I mean it's not hard to do it, but if you're going for what you mentioned, triangles and guillotines, you're probably going to be sorry immediatley after it. Best bet is to use your natural fighting experience to put the guy away with punches.
Lol, one of the quickest ways to tell someone doesn't know what they're doing is an over-emphasis on eye gouging, hair pulling, groin biting, etc. Like, seriously, ever heard of Matt Thornton, SBGi, Aliveness -- anything? This is so passe.

The fact that you guys think that eye-gouges are the best counter for guillotines and that biting is the way out of a triangle shows both a general lack of knowledge of fighting and a very specific lack of knowledge of those techniques in particular.

This is stupid and I feel stupid for even replying here, but I am having suuuch a slow day at work. If my disdain isn't already evident, I'd like it to be stated outright.

The problem with relying on those moves is that they're based on pain compliance rather than control, leverage, and a guaranteed finish. Gouging someone's eye out is a) harder than you'd think, and b) doesn't necessarily stop an opponent. In an MMA match, Gerard Gordeau gouged Yuki Nakai's eye into permanent blindness, but still got submitted.

Relying on someone else not being as tough as you is a DUMB idea, especially if you're gonna invest in a technique that doesn't have finishing ability. Take, for example, eye gouge vs guillotine. Even if we exclude the fact it'd be REALLY hard to find the guy's eye in time if you're in a proper guillotine, the eye gouge lacks control and leverage. The guy's just gonna shift his body to move his head out of the way, which is going to cost you precious seconds that you don't have. (Also, this is assuming you aren't in an arm-in guillotine or marcelo garcia high-elbow guillotine, where it's just physically impossible to gouge)

But lets just pretend the stars have aligned and the gods of unreliable dirty moves are smiling upon you, you find his eyes but you're in a deep guillotine. Now it's a matter of who's willing to suffer more. Now you said that if you pass out, but bite out a chunk of someone, you consider yourself the winner. That is where you are seriously wrong. Because if this guy doesn't fold to the pain (assuming he didnt just adjust his body to avoid it), you're going unconscious. You've either attempted to, or even successfully, permanently damaged his eye. And your unconscious. Brilliant move.

Banking on someone's mercy after you've tried to permanently injure them is about as smart as betting on an inherently inferior pain-compliance 'technique' on defeating an inherently superior leverage-based chokehold. That is to say, not smart at all. Not even a little.

Don't even get me started on how dumb the triangle biting is. All of the reasons why eye gouge vs guillotine is dumb are two fold for the bite vs triangle. Aside from the fact that you won't get through the jeans, as Voiceless already pointed out, you're not even threatening permanent injury. At least with the eye gouge its pain compliance + threat of potentially permanent injury vs a leverage-based finisher. Furthermore, doing the triangle-ing could easily go for an eye-gouge of his own. And that wouldn't even be retarded, since he's got control in that situation.

Really, the proper thing to do in either case is to defend the submission first. Once you're out of danger, you could go for your RBSD-fetish techniques like biting and eye gouging. But if you do it before then, you're gambling stupidly.

Lets not even get into the potential legal ramifications if you are successful.

But again, this is stuff that every legitimate martial artist knows. This topic is an instant red alert for LARPers and theorists. And a serious pet peeve of mine.

Jeez.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I replied to all of that, only to now realize that it didnt come through.

Basically, the summary of what I was saying was that Street Fighting and Untrained are two different things. For example, one of the two martial arts I do pretty much specialises in techniques to be used in the street. While I probably can't do any of it, the sensei and other high grade practitioners would have a very high level of ability regarding it. An MMA fighter might have a guillotine or a triangle up his sleeve, but just because we see that stuff in the cage doesnt mean it's the most effective. Wrist locks are equally as effective, and because small joint manipulation isnt allowed in the cage, an MMA fighter won't have come across it. I believe this levels up the playing field between what techniques will change the fight. Adding to that, an MMA fighter has holds barred, while a martial artist training in a non sports enviroment has none. Eye gouges, groin shots and hair pulling or whatever you mentioned might not be the best techniques ever on their own, or as a counter, but when mixed in with technique and intent they are a lot more damaging than otherwise. The person training for combat on the street will have an obvious home field advantage. Martial arts takes street fighting in, as martial arts was not developed as a competition, but as a self defence system. Everything stems from that, and unlike MMA which is 100% focused to competing, the techniques are designed to prevent threats on your life, not victory. Street fighting isnt the drunk guy outside a nighclub, it's a non disqualification fight to the finish, whether that be by it being broke up or worse. Take weapons in too. An MMA fight will have no clue how to disarm a martial artist with a weapon, let alone defend against it.

It's pretty much what I said earlier. It's only relevent when you take a trained fighter against an untrained fighter. When you're trying to use techniques like a triangle, in which you'll either have to pull guard or use it from the top, you had better make sure it's an untrained fighter. You pull guard on the street, instead of trying to punch you, someone with intelligence could just repeatedly slam your head onto the concrete. You can lock in a triangle, but if they have any sort of martial arts knowledge, you could be picked up and slammed, with a massive chance of suffering a huge injury. If you go for the guillotine, even basic fighters can keep it standing and put it against the cage. Take the cage away. You're getting thrown into actual things. Buildings, cards, lampposts. That isn't going to knock you out but if people can use the cage to slip out of submissions, I'm sure using a solid surface will be a lot easier. Thats what I'm saying that using the natural abilities of an MMA fighter is the best thing to do. An MMA fighter will have more experience in sparring than any "street fighter", because they don't need real life fights to have punches coming at them with the intent of knockout and damage. Keeping it standing allows the MMA fighter to use his reactions and reflexes against the less experiences opponent, but taking it to the ground allows a trained fighter the oppertunity to exocute techniques the MMA fighter has never even heard of.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:24 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
I replied to all of that, only to now realize that it didnt come through.

Basically, the summary of what I was saying was that Street Fighting and Untrained are two different things. For example, one of the two martial arts I do pretty much specialises in techniques to be used in the street. While I probably can't do any of it, the sensei and other high grade practitioners would have a very high level of ability regarding it.
So you're not very good, but your sensei and sempai are... But if you're not very good, how credible is your assessment of their abilities?

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
An MMA fighter might have a guillotine or a triangle up his sleeve, but just because we see that stuff in the cage doesnt mean it's the most effective. Wrist locks are equally as effective, and because small joint manipulation isnt allowed in the cage, an MMA fighter won't have come across it. I believe this levels up the playing field between what techniques will change the fight.
Wrist locks are far less effective because the lack of control they afford. They're definitely worthwhile techniques, but lower on the pecking scale than chokes in general unarmed combat. A lot of times, a fully resisting opponent can rip free or won't be in a position to catch them in a good one. That said, I do agree that they have value when someone grabs your clothes and that is where they are most viable.

However, you are flat-out wrong about it evening the playing field. There's a saying that novices talk about gear, while professionals discuss tactics. The same is true about martial arts. You're trying to make an argument about how "this technique will beat these techniques." No, that's not how it works.

Techniques are secondary to delivery systems. How good you are at performing techniques -- whatever they are -- against an uncooperative opponent. How do you get good at that? Live drilling and heavy, realistic sparring on a regular basis. The more frequently you do that, and the better partners you have, the better you will become.

And that is why anyone who claims that they can beat a high level professional fighter because they have more street-ready techniques is an idiot, a fraud, delusional, or any combination there of.

Simply put, if a BJJ brown belt fought your sensei, the brown belt is more likely to land a wristlock than your sensei. Why? Because, the brown belt is already extremely accustomed to controlling and dominating COMPETENT grapplers, who are fully resisting his attempts to do so. Meanwhile, your instructor has only his underlings (who, evidently, are so bad at grappling they think they can bite their way out of triangles) to practice his moves on. Ultimately, its not about who's got the bigger payload; it is about who can deliver it.

The sport fighter, who devotes hours upon hours to non-compliant training will be that guy 99 times out of 100.


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Adding to that, an MMA fighter has holds barred, while a martial artist training in a non sports enviroment has none. Eye gouges, groin shots and hair pulling or whatever you mentioned might not be the best techniques ever on their own, or as a counter, but when mixed in with technique and intent they are a lot more damaging than otherwise.
The bold part is true. Combat athletes are good at fighting. Self defense martial artists are (theoretically) good at surviving dangerous scenarios.

A legitimate Reality Based Self Defense practitioner would survive a lot of scenarios are sport fighter would not. However, if they were to collide in unarmed combat, the sport fighter would definitely have a HUUUGE advantage. Because fighting is his domain.

Really, the most effective thing to do would be to get good at actually fighting (via sports training) then tacking on some scenario-based drilling and 'street techniques' later.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
The person training for combat on the street will have an obvious home field advantage. Martial arts takes street fighting in, as martial arts was not developed as a competition, but as a self defence system. Everything stems from that, and unlike MMA which is 100% focused to competing, the techniques are designed to prevent threats on your life, not victory. Street fighting isnt the drunk guy outside a nighclub, it's a non disqualification fight to the finish, whether that be by it being broke up or worse. Take weapons in too. An MMA fight will have no clue how to disarm a martial artist with a weapon, let alone defend against it.
The bolded portion holds *some* truth, but definitely doesn't apply to the surprising amount of people who cross train MMA and Kali.

The advantage in a fight would go to the guy who's better at fighting. That will be the MMA guy -- regardless of rules.

The funny thing about this is that the only people who seem to think otherwise ARE PEOPLE WHO CANT FIGHT.

I've met plenty of people in MMA, who have tons of street fighting experience, bouncing experience, self defense experience, or something of that sort. All of these people, who have street experience, have said the exact same thing I said above.

The LARPers, the delusional, and the phonies are the ones who try to sell you this idea of 'magic techniques' that will somehow outclass superior skill.


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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
It's pretty much what I said earlier. It's only relevent when you take a trained fighter against an untrained fighter. When you're trying to use techniques like a triangle, in which you'll either have to pull guard or use it from the top, you had better make sure it's an untrained fighter. You pull guard on the street, instead of trying to punch you, someone with intelligence could just repeatedly slam your head onto the concrete. You can lock in a triangle, but if they have any sort of martial arts knowledge, you could be picked up and slammed, with a massive chance of suffering a huge injury. If you go for the guillotine, even basic fighters can keep it standing and put it against the cage. Take the cage away. You're getting thrown into actual things. Buildings, cards, lampposts. That isn't going to knock you out but if people can use the cage to slip out of submissions, I'm sure using a solid surface will be a lot easier. Thats what I'm saying that using the natural abilities of an MMA fighter is the best thing to do. An MMA fighter will have more experience in sparring than any "street fighter", because they don't need real life fights to have punches coming at them with the intent of knockout and damage. Keeping it standing allows the MMA fighter to use his reactions and reflexes against the less experiences opponent, but taking it to the ground allows a trained fighter the oppertunity to exocute techniques the MMA fighter has never even heard of.
This whole part was retarded and again displays your gaping lack of knowledge. If you get picked up so easily on triangles, you clearly suck. I mean, it happens once in a while maybe, but most of the time it results on them falling on to their side or on the wrong end of a mounted triangle. So no. Just no.

Anyways, some thing I always bring up to people who think dirty techniques will trump actual skill and experience in dealing with resisting opponents... Do you think your revered sensei would lose to a white belt if only the white belt could use dirty techniques? Because that's pretty much what your argument is.

Though almost everything you've said is dumb, I will give you credit for being very gentlemanly about it while I continue to be rude and disparaging. So props for that, if nothing else.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:16 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Lol, one of the quickest ways to tell someone doesn't know what they're doing is an over-emphasis on eye gouging, hair pulling, groin biting, etc. Like, seriously, ever heard of Matt Thornton, SBGi, Aliveness -- anything? This is so passe.

The fact that you guys think that eye-gouges are the best counter for guillotines and that biting is the way out of a triangle shows both a general lack of knowledge of fighting and a very specific lack of knowledge of those techniques in particular.

This is stupid and I feel stupid for even replying here, but I am having suuuch a slow day at work. If my disdain isn't already evident, I'd like it to be stated outright.

The problem with relying on those moves is that they're based on pain compliance rather than control, leverage, and a guaranteed finish. Gouging someone's eye out is a) harder than you'd think, and b) doesn't necessarily stop an opponent. In an MMA match, Gerard Gordeau gouged Yuki Nakai's eye into permanent blindness, but still got submitted.

Relying on someone else not being as tough as you is a DUMB idea, especially if you're gonna invest in a technique that doesn't have finishing ability. Take, for example, eye gouge vs guillotine. Even if we exclude the fact it'd be REALLY hard to find the guy's eye in time if you're in a proper guillotine, the eye gouge lacks control and leverage. The guy's just gonna shift his body to move his head out of the way, which is going to cost you precious seconds that you don't have. (Also, this is assuming you aren't in an arm-in guillotine or marcelo garcia high-elbow guillotine, where it's just physically impossible to gouge)

But lets just pretend the stars have aligned and the gods of unreliable dirty moves are smiling upon you, you find his eyes but you're in a deep guillotine. Now it's a matter of who's willing to suffer more. Now you said that if you pass out, but bite out a chunk of someone, you consider yourself the winner. That is where you are seriously wrong. Because if this guy doesn't fold to the pain (assuming he didnt just adjust his body to avoid it), you're going unconscious. You've either attempted to, or even successfully, permanently damaged his eye. And your unconscious. Brilliant move.

Banking on someone's mercy after you've tried to permanently injure them is about as smart as betting on an inherently inferior pain-compliance 'technique' on defeating an inherently superior leverage-based chokehold. That is to say, not smart at all. Not even a little.

Don't even get me started on how dumb the triangle biting is. All of the reasons why eye gouge vs guillotine is dumb are two fold for the bite vs triangle. Aside from the fact that you won't get through the jeans, as Voiceless already pointed out, you're not even threatening permanent injury. At least with the eye gouge its pain compliance + threat of potentially permanent injury vs a leverage-based finisher. Furthermore, doing the triangle-ing could easily go for an eye-gouge of his own. And that wouldn't even be retarded, since he's got control in that situation.

Really, the proper thing to do in either case is to defend the submission first. Once you're out of danger, you could go for your RBSD-fetish techniques like biting and eye gouging. But if you do it before then, you're gambling stupidly.

Lets not even get into the potential legal ramifications if you are successful.

But again, this is stuff that every legitimate martial artist knows. This topic is an instant red alert for LARPers and theorists. And a serious pet peeve of mine.

Jeez.

[/End Thread]

Kin knows his shit, like really knows his shit. Read his other posts on the forum an check out his fight videos.

Kin just pretty much said everything Ive been thinking this whole thread but put it in a much more applied and technically descriptive way than I ever could.

There is literally no argument to any of the scenarios he just described.
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