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Old 12-06-2012, 06:17 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:57 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
I dont get how any of this is relevent to what I said.
My answer was relevant in as you claimed "MMA Vs Street Fighter is only relevent as in trained fighter Vs untrained fighter." and supported the "MMA doesnt work" attitude of your sensei. I gave you reasons why this isn't true.

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But as with JJ training against multiple opponents and arm attacks, yeah sure, that stuff works...but are you a master of it? If not, it's not that effective.
I don't believe in "mastering" a fighting skill. To me that would imply to be perfect and flawless - always, in every situation. Which you can't, because every fighting situation is different. Nerve conduction velocity is limited (~ 100m/s), your brain has to process the incoming information etc. So perfection is biologically impossible. With training you can only gain a high aptitude in skill. And no credible JJ/Self Defense/etc. instructor would tell you that with his training you're protected against multiple opponents and armed attacks. You just better your odds.

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Again, the main training will be awareness and experience in those situations. Takedowns and stuff are alright in a street fight, but generally it just happens. You're usually not standing in the middle of an open field at the time. You try and take a dude down and you probably go against a wall, and you only have so much time before someone tries to break it up or the cops come. Best thing in a street fight is near enough always to keep it standing and for a trained fighter, to use his ability to see punches coming and avoid them to make the difference and gap between a trained and untrained fighter becoming very clear. My mate said 3 people attacked him a few months ago. From karate sparring, which is jabbing and straights, he said their haymakers were SO easy to avoid, and he never got caught by one until they were stopped by someone passing by. Chokes and shit only work when you've been training them daily for years upon years, and I mean martial arts chokes. If you're training your guillotine in MMA class, you're training for sport, not self defence, which is where "dirty" shit catches you off guard.
Both statements are false. 1) You don't need to pratice chokes daily for years to be able to execute them in a fight. I.e. a RNC (or Hadaka Jime for Japanese martial arts like Karate) can be internalised when training twice a week in a month or so. 2) "dirty" shit doesn't necessarily catch fighters that train for sport off guard. Even in purely sports oriented Olympic Judo classes they teach that "dirty" techniques are only illegal if the referee sees them.

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Theres a difference between going all out and street fighting. I wasnt meaning swing for the fences Leben style. I mean MMA cardio and general stamina. You dont need CARDIO because you're not going to be fighting a 25 minute fight. Shit will be over within 5 minutes 90% of the time.
5 Minutes can be pretty long when you don't train cardio. Ask Shane Carwin, who is a professional athlete and even trains cardio. To neglect cardio in training for street fighting is plain stupid. Yes, often a fight is over in a few minutes, but you never know. You don't want to gas in 30 seconds. And in case you have to run away, you want to have a gas tank to be able to do so.

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If you hold him down and he cant move, desperation sets in. In MMA, this means submissions and attempts to get up. In a real life fight, this means trying to bite your face off. You might be a hardy guy for all I know, but someone starts biting your cheek off you're going to freak the fuk out. Just human nature. In MMA guys drop for like 2mins with a groin shot, wait till some dudes trying to rip them off.
I don't know where the reference is to what I've written. You answer completely off topic. My statement was an answer to your claim that take downs don't work in a street fight, now you come up with biting again. You even quoted my statement. As a reminder, here it is again:

"Thinking that take downs don't work in street fights is also wrong. Firstly, most people don't know how to defend a take down. Secondly, on the streets you don't fight on suspended ground covered with a mat. Because of that, a good take down has a pretty high chance to result in a KO. And if you know how to use take downs on the street, the guy doesn't just fall on an even concrete floor (which is already quite damaging), but on curb stone, car edges, spiky fences etc."
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
5 Minutes can be pretty long when you don't train cardio. Ask Shane Carwin, who is a professional athlete and even trains cardio. To neglect cardio in training for street fighting is plain stupid. Yes, often a fight is over in a few minutes, but you never know. You don't want to gas in 30 seconds. And in case you have to run away, you want to have a gas tank to be able to do so.
That's putting it lightly. I consider myself a fairly well conditioned athlete, but if I don't pace myself I can definitely gas within 5 minutes. And thats the thing about real fights -- the adrenaline dump! You burn through energy like a torch through newspaper. The average guy will have like 30 seconds of fury -- give or take -- after which his intensity will start to fade. For all of the training I do, I think I could only go 100 percent balls to the wall for 2-3 minutes before fading, but that's still a huge advantage.

And having the cardio to run away is SUUUCH a good point. I didn't even think of that, but that's so true. I find it so ironic that the same self defense enthusiasts (thats what i'm calling them, since the vast majority haven't even been in real situations) will say things like "its about survival on the mean streets. I'll eye gouge him then run away!" will also say "cardio doesn't matter. there aren't rounds on the streets" in the same breath.

Id rep, but apparently I need to spread some more around first.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:37 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
So you're not very good, but your sensei and sempai are... But if you're not very good, how credible is your assessment of their abilities?

Soulja Boi is a shit rapper, Anderson Siilva is a great MMA fighter, Jesus did some good shit. I'm not a rapper, fighter or religious figure. Does that make these assessments less credible?

Wrist locks are far less effective because the lack of control they afford. They're definitely worthwhile techniques, but lower on the pecking scale than chokes in general unarmed combat. A lot of times, a fully resisting opponent can rip free or won't be in a position to catch them in a good one. That said, I do agree that they have value when someone grabs your clothes and that is where they are most viable.

Yeah well RNC is pretty much the most effective technique in anything. Again I think if you take into account that the MMA fighter has never trained resits for the holds, then it takes his advantages out. I've seen and received throws and wrist locks whilst throwing a full force and fast punch. Obviously the effects are heightened with expectancy, but there is a reason they have been passed through almost every defence martial art in history. A high level practitioner is able to gain the control, because they are taught with such, although in every area an average MMA fighter would smash an average singke style martial artist.

However, you are flat-out wrong about it evening the playing field. There's a saying that novices talk about gear, while professionals discuss tactics. The same is true about martial arts. You're trying to make an argument about how "this technique will beat these techniques." No, that's not how it works.

YOU were trying to do this. The triangle is this unbeatable death lock in street fighting. I was trying to give you a counter where a non MMA fighter will have trained just as effective, if not more effective with the more suited enviroment, techniques that can easily match up the triangle/armbar advantages.

Techniques are secondary to delivery systems. How good you are at performing techniques -- whatever they are -- against an uncooperative opponent. How do you get good at that? Live drilling and heavy, realistic sparring on a regular basis. The more frequently you do that, and the better partners you have, the better you will become.

Yeah thats what I said. MMA has a massive advantage in the sparring element. Even a real MMA fight would work as experience for a street fight. That being said, grappling is a technique where "street fighters" can train to a full degree, where stand up fighting isnt, which is where I was pointing my advantage to.

And that is why anyone who claims that they can beat a high level professional fighter because they have more street-ready techniques is an idiot, a fraud, delusional, or any combination there of.

A high level fighter who has trained weapon defences and techniques specifically tailored for self defence on the street has that advantage on a high level fighter who hasnt. I'm assuming thats pretty obvious.

Simply put, if a BJJ brown belt fought your sensei, the brown belt is more likely to land a wristlock than your sensei. Why? Because, the brown belt is already extremely accustomed to controlling and dominating COMPETENT grapplers, who are fully resisting his attempts to do so. Meanwhile, your instructor has only his underlings (who, evidently, are so bad at grappling they think they can bite their way out of triangles) to practice his moves on. Ultimately, its not about who's got the bigger payload; it is about who can deliver it.

That's VERY biased. Of course a martial art training purley submissions and grappling is more apt in submissions and grappling. And come on man. Stop this internet hard man act. "Underlings who blah blah". We're just having a conversation man you don't have to start acting like you're the UFC champ.

The sport fighter, who devotes hours upon hours to non-compliant training will be that guy 99 times out of 100.

Real martial artists, who don't specifically train for sports, also devote hours upon hours to non-compliant training. Most martial arts arent based on sports, and every other will pretty much be drawn down to street fighting depending on the techniques they learn to defend themselves on the street. Most martial arts are trained for self defence. This usually is drawn down to a lot of training for techniques that will be on the street, even down to rolling out of the way of people stomping on their heads. Just because a martial art is used for sport, doesnt mean it's all high and mighty above the rest.

The bold part is true. Combat athletes are good at fighting. Self defense martial artists are (theoretically) good at surviving dangerous scenarios.

Pretty much, but fighting is a subjective thing. People can be just good at fighting. Someone can know how to throw a punch and knock Anderson Silva out one day. Training allows them to maintain and control it, but people who dont can still have fundamentals.

A legitimate Reality Based Self Defense practitioner would survive a lot of scenarios are sport fighter would not. However, if they were to collide in unarmed combat, the sport fighter would definitely have a HUUUGE advantage. Because fighting is his domain.

I agree. If they collide in a regulated enviroment, the sports guy wins, because it's almost down to sports. A fight on the street isn't narrowed to "unarmed combat" or anything really. There was a guy who used to train a mate of mine. He worked security for business people and VIPs in England. He had to use the shit quite a lot. Try telling a fight who has to use the techniques he learns and teaches for a living that fighting isnt his domain. These people still commit their entire lives to martial arts and their techniques. Just because they dont fight for money doesnt mean it isnt their lives.

Really, the most effective thing to do would be to get good at actually fighting (via sports training) then tacking on some scenario-based drilling and 'street techniques' later.

Agreed. Pretty much what I look to do. I picked two local martial arts now just for availability, which I suppose are good for fine tuning techniques, but they dont bring with them the fitness and grit that sports training does.

The advantage in a fight would go to the guy who's better at fighting. That will be the MMA guy -- regardless of rules.

Again, why? Becuase he does it in a cage? What about special forces who have to train martial arts for life and death situations? I think it's the LA cops which cross train Gracie BJJ with street fighting. How will an MMA fighter have an advantage over that? The MMA fighter has controled fights, but this LA cop might see a new completley similar challenge every week. The MMA fighter will just be another day at the office for him.

The funny thing about this is that the only people who seem to think otherwise ARE PEOPLE WHO CANT FIGHT.

I've met plenty of people in MMA, who have tons of street fighting experience, bouncing experience, self defense experience, or something of that sort. All of these people, who have street experience, have said the exact same thing I said above.

You see every other day, some guy who did bouncing and shit enter MMA and get smashed easily. Thats really where what you're saying seems to reference. But a 20 year martial arts guy who's faught in street fighting his whole life will easily be capable to defeat an MMA fighter in a street fighter.

The LARPers, the delusional, and the phonies are the ones who try to sell you this idea of 'magic techniques' that will somehow outclass superior skill.

Superior skill will always win (with the exception of lucky punches and shit).

This whole part was retarded and again displays your gaping lack of knowledge. If you get picked up so easily on triangles, you clearly suck. I mean, it happens once in a while maybe, but most of the time it results on them falling on to their side or on the wrong end of a mounted triangle. So no. Just no.

I actually meant armbar. Yeah I've never seen someone picked up properly from a triangle either, and even if they could, it's pretty easy to keep your chin tucked and take it on your neck. But the triangle letts you so incredibly opened to the dudes mate jumping on your head. Thats stuff trained in other martial arts. The awareness that anyone around you could be a threat, and once you have a choke for example locked in, it can't be one that leaves you venurable to other attacks. Most techniques leave you in control of your opponent, but your head up to prepare to release the hold if need be to defend yet another attack.

Anyways, some thing I always bring up to people who think dirty techniques will trump actual skill and experience in dealing with resisting opponents... Do you think your revered sensei would lose to a white belt if only the white belt could use dirty techniques? Because that's pretty much what your argument is.

I never once said that a dirty technique trumps actual skill. What I'm saying is that what you consider a dirty technique, might actually be a TECHNIQUE which has depth and knoweldge put into it. There are many moves and holds that will leave a groin shot very opened. That will at least make your opponent pause or flinch which allows your to link up to something else. I'm not saying my sensei is even that good. This isn't a my dad would beat up your dad thing . I'm just using the things I've seen and done as reference, as are you. But you're twisting what I'm saying. I have at no time said dirty techniques are the way to go. I'm just saying that in a street fight, the dirty part is non existant, and you can't go out thinking it's a sports compititon because these moves are very open to many MMA techniques, so you cant just assume everything is going to work because it does in the cage..

Though almost everything you've said is dumb, I will give you credit for being very gentlemanly about it while I continue to be rude and disparaging. So props for that, if nothing else.

But really, my dad would beat up your dad Nah I like a good debate. I like to be very strong on one side because sitting on the fence is gay. For the record, I still prefer MMA over everything else, and yeah 99.9% of the guy the dude training like a machine day in day out will beat the guy who trains by his own accord. I was just defending the .1%
^^^ Voiceless, I'll reply to you in a bit man. This message has my head hurting
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:26 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FBrown View Post
So, I hear this alot in my neck of the woods and alot of people say that someone with just 1 Month of BJJ could submit the average person (or hurt them on the "street"). Does anyone think this is a good number? BJJ doesn't prepare you to get smashed in the face and while I love MMA and train, I'm not so convinced that your average MMA fighter could run through just anyone on the street (that has never trained in any martial art or discipline). My main reason is this: there is no feeling out process like we tend to see in sanctioned fights (and no rules). Any thoughts?
No way, one month isn't nearly enough. Assuming they are of equal "toughness" , the guy would need 3+ months at a minimum, but more importantly an equal amount of stand up training on how how to avoid the big punch.

I assume you're talking about 1 on 1 without weapons. Multiple opponents and/or a weapon isn't worth discussing imo, unless we're talking about a movie scene.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:31 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
That's putting it lightly. I consider myself a fairly well conditioned athlete, but if I don't pace myself I can definitely gas within 5 minutes. And thats the thing about real fights -- the adrenaline dump! You burn through energy like a torch through newspaper. The average guy will have like 30 seconds of fury -- give or take -- after which his intensity will start to fade. For all of the training I do, I think I could only go 100 percent balls to the wall for 2-3 minutes before fading, but that's still a huge advantage.

And having the cardio to run away is SUUUCH a good point. I didn't even think of that, but that's so true. I find it so ironic that the same self defense enthusiasts (thats what i'm calling them, since the vast majority haven't even been in real situations) will say things like "its about survival on the mean streets. I'll eye gouge him then run away!" will also say "cardio doesn't matter. there aren't rounds on the streets" in the same breath.

Id rep, but apparently I need to spread some more around first.
Cardio is a strange thing...I can spar and roll for a decent amount of time, but when the fights on and the adrenaline is raging I gas much quicker. Pro fighters (with the exception of Lesnar and Carwin), learn how to keep a cool head and pace their adrenaline.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:55 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Soulja Boi is a shit rapper, Anderson Siilva is a great MMA fighter, Jesus did some good shit. I'm not a rapper, fighter or religious figure. Does that make these assessments less credible?
Uh, actually yes that does. Although whats mentioned above are pretty commonly held opinions, so not many would challenge you on it. If that wasn't the case, someone would surely ask "well why should your opinion hold any weight?"

Since you don't speak from a position of authority or knowledge on any of those topics, the answer would be "it doesn't."

Furthermore, we're not talking about something as subjective as 'good music' or if a fighter is 'good' or not. You and I are disagreeing about something that's more technical in nature. At that point, our respective merits in the topic of debate become pretty relevant.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Yeah well RNC is pretty much the most effective technique in anything. Again I think if you take into account that the MMA fighter has never trained resits for the holds, then it takes his advantages out. I've seen and received throws and wrist locks whilst throwing a full force and fast punch. Obviously the effects are heightened with expectancy, but there is a reason they have been passed through almost every defence martial art in history. A high level practitioner is able to gain the control, because they are taught with such, although in every area an average MMA fighter would smash an average singke style martial artist.
I am not sure if I agree with the RNC being the most effective technique in anything. I'd rate the jab over it, personally.

As for the wrist locks LOL. Yeah, the funny thing about those is that it's not remotely hard to defend. I mean, maybe they are for you, but... Again, it comes back to grappling competency. If you dangle your limbs everywhere, sure you could get wrist locked pretty easily. If not, it'll be pretty hard for the guy to get you unless he isolates the entire arm.

The most likely times to get wrist locked are when you're in an omoplata or a straight arm lock. In other scenarios, when your arm isnt isolated, its too easy to just rip out of it. That said, there are a few circumstances where you can just snatch a wrist lock up -- like if they have a grip on your lapel, for instance. Other than that, the end of someones arm is just too dynamic for you to pull that off.

As for you getting wrist locked while you're throwing a full force punch... Either you were being compliant, or you're the biggest chump ever. There's really no way a semi-decent striker will get wrist locked mid punch. Like it COULD happen, but you could also win the lottery. Gambling on such uber lower percentage moves, however, is stupid as all hell.

Again, there are contexts where wristlocks are great. The middle of a fist fight (when blows are flying) is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
YOU were trying to do this. The triangle is this unbeatable death lock in street fighting. I was trying to give you a counter where a non MMA fighter will have trained just as effective, if not more effective with the more suited enviroment, techniques that can easily match up the triangle/armbar advantages.
Lolno.

And also no. Not only does the second sentence not make any ******* sense, but no. Just no on all fronts.

And the techniques you proposed are stupid in that context.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Yeah thats what I said. MMA has a massive advantage in the sparring element. Even a real MMA fight would work as experience for a street fight. That being said, grappling is a technique where "street fighters" can train to a full degree, where stand up fighting isnt, which is where I was pointing my advantage to."
What tf are you even trying to say?

I'm just going to repeat again that grappling (and striking) is trained most effectively when its with people who know what they're doing. A bunch of crapplers derping around isn't very effective. Its only marginally more effective than playing video games.

It has become abundantly clear (though it was pretty obvious from the start) that you are a crappler. Like almost everything you've said on the topic of grappling is just incorrect.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
That's VERY biased. Of course a martial art training purley submissions and grappling is more apt in submissions and grappling. And come on man. Stop this internet hard man act. "Underlings who blah blah". We're just having a conversation man you don't have to start acting like you're the UFC champ.
Biased, maybe. Doesn't make it any less true.

See, I was once like you. I've actually been training in martial arts since I was 9. I've trained traditional martial arts long before I started training in combat sports. I used to say stupid shit like you do, based on unqualified conjecture, and would preach something similar to what you are right now.

But then I actually learned how to fight, saw the error of my ways, and hold the opinion that I do now.

As for the 'internet hard man' act, I have at no point talked about how I'm the baddest mofo ever. I'm just saying that I know what I'm talking about and that what you're preaching is dumb.

Furthermore, I feel that it is my duty to shoot martial idiocy down the second I see it. If some person who was on the fence about this subject, came across this thread, and realized that he should learn an actual triangle escape instead of thinking "oh whatever i'll just bite my way out" then I've contributed positively to martial arts. Albeit, in an incredibly minute way, but still... To stay silent in the face of bullshido is to enable it. And lord knows there's enough bullshido going around this day and age.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Real martial artists, who don't specifically train for sports, also devote hours upon hours to non-compliant training. Most martial arts arent based on sports, and every other will pretty much be drawn down to street fighting depending on the techniques they learn to defend themselves on the street. Most martial arts are trained for self defence. This usually is drawn down to a lot of training for techniques that will be on the street, even down to rolling out of the way of people stomping on their heads. Just because a martial art is used for sport, doesnt mean it's all high and mighty above the rest.
lol. Don't act like you don't spend a good chunk of your class doing kata or one-step drills. I probably spar more in a week than you do in 2 + months.

Also rolling out of the way to avoid a stomp is dumb. Some pivoting followed by a technical standup will do you a lot better. (But thats stuff you learn in real grappling classes, so I understand you've gotta work with what you've got.)

Also, a martial art that has a combat sport aspect will be better for fighting than one that doesn't. Because in a combat sport your end goal is to fight. In a traditional art, you have multiple objectives. You're trying to preserve the traditions, you're trying to learn self defense, and you're trying to learn how to fight. A guy who's focused on one thing will be better than someone at that than someone who's focused on three.

That said, I'm really not trying to rag on traditional arts. There are def some badass traditional martial arts I'd never mess with. But I'm just relaying the indisputable truth that at PURE FIGHTING, a sport fighter is going to be superior almost every time. A good traditional martial artist could destroy an untrained person, and may even be able to survive situations that a combat athlete would get killed in* -- which is something I mentioned before. But in a one-on-one fight, a combat athlete is generally the top dog.

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Pretty much, but fighting is a subjective thing. People can be just good at fighting. Someone can know how to throw a punch and knock Anderson Silva out one day. Training allows them to maintain and control it, but people who dont can still have fundamentals.
Your understanding of the words 'subjective' and 'fundamentals' are clearly a little off.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
I agree. If they collide in a regulated enviroment, the sports guy wins, because it's almost down to sports. A fight on the street isn't narrowed to "unarmed combat" or anything really. There was a guy who used to train a mate of mine. He worked security for business people and VIPs in England. He had to use the shit quite a lot. Try telling a fight who has to use the techniques he learns and teaches for a living that fighting isnt his domain. These people still commit their entire lives to martial arts and their techniques. Just because they dont fight for money doesnt mean it isnt their lives.
In any form of unarmed combat, a sport guy has an advantage. Obviously, there's no guarantee on anyone winning.

There are obviously exceptions to every rule, but a combat athlete will be training for fighting the most. Furthermore, steel sharpens steel. Your buddy's technique is adequate for untrained people. Awesome; that's what he encounters, so that makes sense. If he were to fight a seasoned combat athlete in an unarmed situation, he'd be at a huge disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Again, why? Becuase he does it in a cage? What about special forces who have to train martial arts for life and death situations? I think it's the LA cops which cross train Gracie BJJ with street fighting. How will an MMA fighter have an advantage over that? The MMA fighter has controled fights, but this LA cop might see a new completley similar challenge every week. The MMA fighter will just be another day at the office for him.
Because he does it against other competitive fighters. Steel sharpens steel.

And OMFG YOU ARE RETARDED -- as is anyone who's like "derp well special forces/navy seals/marines/Spartan IIs fight in war so their martial arts must be the shit right?"

As I've mentioned time and time again, you get good at something by doing it a lot with capable partners. People only have a finite amount of time in one day, which is why no one is a world class boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, bjj, and MMA fighter all at once. You have to pick and choose.

Similarly, special forces spend most of their time doing things relevant to armed combat. If they spent enough time doing unarmed combat to be able to compete with athletes whos sole profession is to engage in armed combat, then they'd suck at the important stuff.

Obviously, a special forces guy is more dangerous overall than an MMA fighter -- but it's because of his armed training, tactics, and tools. NOT because of his H2H prowess.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
You see every other day, some guy who did bouncing and shit enter MMA and get smashed easily. Thats really where what you're saying seems to reference. But a 20 year martial arts guy who's faught in street fighting his whole life will easily be capable to defeat an MMA fighter in a street fighter.
Depends. There are definitely some badass 20 year traditional martial artists... but most of them are fat delusional wannabes, who don't know the first thing about fighter. Keep up the 'good work,' and I'm sure you'll be joining their ranks one day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Superior skill will always win (with the exception of lucky punches and shit).
omfg, you've said some stupid stuff already, and this is high on the list. Conditioning can defeat skill. Attributes can defeat skill. Skill helps, but it is not the only factor in determining the outcome of a fight. Maybe if you actually fought, you'd know that.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
I never once said that a dirty technique trumps actual skill. What I'm saying is that what you consider a dirty technique, might actually be a TECHNIQUE which has depth and knoweldge put into it. There are many moves and holds that will leave a groin shot very opened. That will at least make your opponent pause or flinch which allows your to link up to something else.
The entire basis of your argument implies that dirty techniques can trump skill. Or serve as an equalizer against superior skill.

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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
I'm not saying my sensei is even that good. This isn't a my dad would beat up your dad thing
Well, if you're any indication of his teaching, your sensei isn't.

And don't worry, I know your dad couldn't beat up my dad.

My dad is a 6th degree Uechi Ryu black belt, who's trained in karate for almost 40 years, boxing for about 30, 6 years of aikido, 4 years of escrima, and has been in countless street fights and riots.

And funny thing is, back when I was a delusional newbie like you, me and him would have a similar argument. What I'm saying to you, he'd say to me. But I just didnt wanna believe that a good boxer would whoop on a TKD black belt, so I kept on being a retard until I actually learned a thing or two about fighting years later.

All in all, even if you're just playing devils advocate, you have done a fantastic job representing bullshido and martial idiocy. There's really nothing left to be said here...

* While there are some legitimately badass traditional martial artists, the vast majority cannot fight at all. Some are only interested in the cultural aspects, some do it just for fitness, and all too many are living in a fantasy land about what works and what doesn't.

(But the heaps of crap make the diamonds in the rough that much more precious.)
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:59 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mastodon2222 View Post
Cardio is a strange thing...I can spar and roll for a decent amount of time, but when the fights on and the adrenaline is raging I gas much quicker. Pro fighters (with the exception of Lesnar and Carwin), learn how to keep a cool head and pace their adrenaline.
Its all about the pacing. I've gone the distance in ammy MMA (9 minutes) a few times and felt like I could do another 3 rounds. But I've also felt like I was gonna pass out after 2 minutes of the first round in a different fight. Shit, just wrestling with a D1 guy for a few minutes has me feeling like I ran a marathon.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:44 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Not a chance I'm reading that much. Just thinking about it makes my hangover worse I might reply one day if I ever muster the attention span.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:44 PM   #40 (permalink)
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just came back from the gym and reading this. I've done some wing chun (which is probably the most "vocal" art in the "my art is a lethal weapon" category) and whatnot in the past. Been training mma for a month now to get back in shape and well... just try it out, since I enjoy watching it so much.

First off, that "cardio" aspect. We're not talking rounds, we're talking minutes. I'm pretty sure an untrained guy would gas out in less than a minute (and that includes many amongst those who train in traditional stuff)

We've been sparring (something that I've never done in WC) and that is also an aspect that will give the advantage: experience. The harder you spar, the more ready you'll be. I'm not even talking about those who actually fight.

dirty techniques have legal ramifications that you or anyone else don't want to deal with. Whereas a choke is clean.

Basically, an untrained guy will be at a disadvantage vs any trained dude, but actual, regular fighting experience will give the MMA fighter an edge (and probably, as mentioned above, any sport-type fighter).

A well trained grappler/MMA grappler can put an untrained guy into a hold before the guy realizes what's happening.


MMA was born for this, test the "most effective style", until they figured that there is no "more effective style", but that they can take what has been proven to actually work, and put it into what they then called "Mixed Martial Arts"

The beauty of it is that everyone can still bring whatever traditional stuff they learned before, and test it out, refine it, adapt it, modify it so it actually works.

The one thing I missed in traditional MA was that "realistic" approach through actual sparring against non compliant opponents.

In no way, shape or form do I want to disrespect traditional MA, my own son does some as well. They can teach anyone lots of good stuff. But with more and more people being educated and training in MMA nowadays, I wouldn't rely on solely traditional MA to actually defend myself.

Sprinting is, and always has been the best solution to win a fight.

So if you want to be unbeatable, you better hit the track
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