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View Poll Results: Rate Tiger Woods and Golf. Choose the two options that reflect your opinion.
Tiger Woods is an elite athlete 20 74.07%
Tiger Woods is not an elite athlete 5 18.52%
Golf is a sport 17 62.96%
Golf is not a sport 5 18.52%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kamikaze145 View Post
YHe is a rich kid who has played golf his whole life, that is not tough to me. To me Roger Huerta is tough, horrible childhood, overcame that and is finishing college and shows an extreme amount of heart in every fight.
So, can anyone be elite if they are unfortunate enough to be raised in a good environment? I don't see how if you are comparing what two adults are like now, there childhood affects it.


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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by All_In_GSP View Post
I can't get to the thread now because it is closed, but I believe it was exactly what the argument was. Alex_DeLarge began with a diatribe of Tiger Woods and golf being a professional sport, after Tiger was #2 (?) on ESPN's list of toughest athletes. "Toughness" was only brought up to refer to his mental toughness. Golf was then bashed as a sport and Tiger as an athlete. The problem RushFan came accross (IMO) was posts such as "It isn't a sport if after you hit the ball you don't run to it - you get in a cart" or "how much athletic talent does it take to hit a ball with a stick four feet?"

I don't remember the wording being along the lines of "Tiger Woods is one of the toughest athletes" in terms of enduring physical stress. I'm not trying to get into an argument here, but IMO the wording of this post is pretty much exactly what he was debating on the last thread. As I recall, one of the final posts was from a mod states, "if you guys want to debate on whether or not Tiger Woods is an athlete, START A THREAD, otherwise this thread is about fighters that have not been KO'd before."

PS - My opinion is such: Tiger Woods is an ELITE athlete and golf is a sport.
I stand corrected. I forgot that it had gotten so far off path that the course had shifted a few times.

The funny part was that it was me that made the post you are reffering to. (Which I'm sure you knew already, thank you for not calling me out on it. )

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Originally Posted by Chrisl972
OK, If you guys want to talk about Tiger not being an athlete, start a new thread about it. This thread is about MMA fighters that have never been knocked out. Please stay on topic, so I don't have to close this thread.

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RushFan View Post
Doesn't that reinforce just how difficult golf is? It is an accepted standard that there should be as close to complete silence whilst a golfer takes his swing due to the mental concentration required to complete an effective stroke. Golf is a hugely mental game. Every professional golfer is sensitive to distractions from unruly fans.
So who is tougher a golfer or a basketball player who is shooting every shot with thousands of fans making noise or a kicker in football making a kick with thousands of fans making noise. Do you ever see any other athlete freak out about making a shot or kicking a ball more than you do when a golfer hits the ball?

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I would actually say yes he is the best ever. More than going for 18 majors is the streak he had of "made cuts". I can't remember what it was when it got snapped a couple of years ago but it was insanely long- like freaky crazy long. Golfers have bad days and every player goes through bad streaks but his bad days still got him through the cut and to do it as long as he did is enough for me(plus his 13 majors and huge list of other wins) to call him the best ever. It's all hypothetical either way when saying a player is the best-ever in any sport.

As to the mental toughness by distracting them(I love it when Stevie goes ape-sh!t on a fan for clicking a picture during Tiger's backswing)- it's how golf has been played forever- with silence. That's just part of the game if they allowed cheering or jeering during a player's swing I'm sure over time they could adapt to it but that's just not how it's played.

Silence can be deafening- standing over an 8 foot putt to make par and win a tournament with thousands of people surrounding the green, the announcers in the TV booth critiquing your every single move and plus the possible thousands or millions of viewers is mind boggling to consider let alone deal with.
Problem with your statement is the other guy I quoted who seems to have the same thinking as you disagree's on whether or not a golfer could overcome fans cheering. SO who is right? But refer to my post to him as well.
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 03:21 PM
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I think Tiger Woods is a perfect example of such.
Really. You think that Tiger can bench, high jump, sprint or weave like an elite athlete?

You're entitled to that belief. Frankly, I think that if we put him in there with a guy who is really an elite athlete, just threw him in the gym with, say, Kevin Garnett, he'd get killed.


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Originally Posted by 6sidedlie View Post
I don't know if I agree with this. Hockey players are some of the toughest and best conditioned athletes in the world but god knows they would not be able to play basketball worth shit. Golfing on the other hand.. no problem.
I disagree. I've seen top tier hockey players work out, I've seen them run and I've seen them weave. Most of them, strangely, actually can jump.

They do have that level of athleticism that I'm talking about. They use their cardio on the ice, and they do use a different set of muscles, but they also have developed general muscles in the weight room and on the track.

Everybody on this thread seems to be missing the difference.

I'm not saying that Tiger's not great at what he does. I'm just saying that he doesn't have a level of athletic prowess that everyone seems to think he does. A great athlete translates, and I don't think that Tiger does that.

My point about his actual toughness aside (his whining about cameras and press really does bother me, and I would never call him a "tough" athlete as a result of it), he's a great golfer, and I'm not going to say that golf isn't hard. I'm looking beyond the golf.

Someone brought up Roger Federer, and Federer has some of the best cardio, coordination, agility and speed in the world. Does he have the muscular power that a football player has? Hell no. But he does have incredible athletic ability. And if he developed the technical skills, he could play most sports based around that skill set. (definitely basketball and baseball)

What's Tiger Woods' skill set? What's athletically impressive about him besides his swing?



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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Really. You think that Tiger can bench, high jump, sprint or weave like an elite athlete?
I didn't say he could bench, high jump, sprint, or weave like anyone. I used it in this context:

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
An athlete is someone who is athletic, someone who shows incredible general physical prowess. That is to say: a combination of strength, speed, agility, coordination and skill in their sport.
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I think Tiger Woods is a perfect example of such.
I still do.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
You're entitled to that belief. Frankly, I think that if we put him in there with a guy who is really an elite athlete, just threw him in the gym with, say, Kevin Garnett, he'd get killed.
Is the gym a place that truly defines an athlete? Bryan Clay, the 2006 decathlon (arguably the most athletic people in the world) point champion wouldn't stand a chance against Garnett in the gym in regards to physical strength, but he can weave more agilely, sprint faster, and has a higher vertical leap than Garnett.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
What's Tiger Woods' skill set? What's athletically impressive about him besides his swing?
What about baseball? Would Barry Bonds, Ryan Howard, Frank Thomas, Roger Clemens, or Billy Wagner be considered elite athletes in your opinion? Point being these athletes are athletes because of the skill-set they have that nobody else on the face of the earth can easily replicate. Hand-eye coordination happens to be one of those skill sets. Having control over one's body is also an underrated athletic characteristic...

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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 04:01 PM
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In one of the hardest sports to be dominant in this guy makes it look easy. It was mathematically proven that when Tiger is in the field the rest of the field plays worse. He is almost two strokes up before he hits his first shot! Elite athlete for sure.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by All_In_GSP View Post
I didn't say he could bench, high jump, sprint, or weave like anyone.

My point was that that is how I define athleticism, the ability to perform athletic tasks and do them well.

Quote:
I still do.
You're entitled to your opinion, I'd just like to see evidence of his athleticism beyond just his skill as a golfer.

Quote:
Is the gym a place that truly defines an athlete? Bryan Clay, the 2006 decathlon (arguably the most athletic people in the world) point champion wouldn't stand a chance against Garnett in the gym in regards to physical strength, but he can weave more agilely, sprint faster, and has a higher vertical leap than Garnett.
I'm not just talking about the weight room. The gym is a general term for a physical workout which, ideally, would test things like agility.

Would Clay's skills translate to other sports?

Damn right they would.

And, by the way, of the four events I mentioned that I'd like to test woods on (bench, high jump, weave and spring), Bryan wins three and Garnett wins one. So, yes, I think Bryan is a better athlete than Kevin Garnett.


Quote:
What about baseball? Would Barry Bonds, Ryan Howard, Frank Thomas, Roger Clemens, or Billy Wagner be considered elite athletes in your opinion? Point being these athletes are athletes because of the skill-set they have that nobody else on the face of the earth can easily replicate. Hand-eye coordination happens to be one of those skill sets. Having control over one's body is also an underrated athletic characteristic...
Don't get me started on Barry Bonds.

Still, do those guys have innate athletic skills? Some do, some don't. Thomas is a physically strong guy, but even though we still consider him a top tier baseball player, he's hardly an elite athlete. I could outrun him in the mile (or any sprint, for that matter) and I'm not exactly the king of the track.

As for guys like Wagner, there's alot of incredible athleticism that those guys show. They can run and they can move.

There are some great, top tier baseball players that are not elite athletes. There are others that are.

Would I call Mo Vaughn an elite athlete? No. I probably wouldn't.

Would I call Torii Hunter an elite athlete? Damn right. That guy can run, jump and move, so there's definitely some incredible athletic potential. The same goes for guys like Ichiro and a young Canseco (who, steroids or not, was a very, very good athlete).



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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 04:10 PM
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If he retired today would you say he is the best? I just get the feeling that people put him as the best all time because of what he will probably do. Everyone think he will break all the major (events as well as in terms of big) records but he hasn't yet.
Yes, he is, right now, the greatest golfer of all time. If he were to retire before breaking the all-time majors record, how can you hold it against him? He has won more majors in a shorter amount of time than anyone in history. His domination of the competition is what makes him the best. Sure, Jack may have more majors, but throughout a really prolonged career. Tiger has done what no one else has in a shorter amount of time.

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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 04:25 PM
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Fair enough, my man. Just a few things…

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
My point was that that is how I define athleticism, the ability to perform athletic tasks and do them well.
Webster's definition of the word athlete:
Quote:
a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.
I just feel Tiger fits the mold here.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
You're entitled to your opinion, I'd just like to see evidence of his athleticism beyond just his skill as a golfer.
It's tough to find information on his regime, but I've read of him benching close to 300 lbs, running distances of 3 miles and 7 miles on given days, and working out in the gym quite a bit. I'll see if I can find some more information related to these statements.

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Would Clay's skills translate to other sports? [Yes].
Would it be fair to say that Tiger's superior hand-eye coordination could translate in the MLB if given the same time and effort?

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
And, by the way, of the four events I mentioned that I'd like to test woods on (bench, high jump, weave and spring), Bryan wins three and Garnett wins one. So, yes, I think Bryan is a better athlete than Kevin Garnett.
Yep, I said so myself too!

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
There are some great, top tier baseball players that are not elite athletes. There are others that are.
I agree, but I think it works the exact same for golf.

Edit: See GMW's post below for workout regime information.

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-14-2008, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by All_In_GSP View Post
It's tough to find information on his regime, but I've read of him benching close to 300 lbs, running distances of 3 miles and 7 miles on given days, and working out in the gym quite a bit. I'll see if I can find some more information related to these statements.
It's not the best but here's some information on his work out regimen.
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2921413


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