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Old 01-05-2009, 11:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Ovechkin all day. He's a bigger game breaker for me than Crosby and brings a physical presence that's not comparable.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Ovechin ftw. The man is a wizard.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by All_In_GSP View Post
Crosby=Center. Ovechkin=Wing. Centers are always more valuable to a team than wings. They also are better pieces to build teams around.


I don't know how you concluded this, but that's ridiculous. Ovvy and Cros both are elite players and it's pretty hard to say one is "better" than the other (i prefer Ovechkin). Ovechkin brings a physical presence and an unmatched knack for scoring, whereas Crosby is an excellent playmaker and seems to be a natural leader. Ovechkin's physicality could catch up with him though (see Peter Forsberg).
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't know how you concluded this, but that's ridiculous. Ovvy and Cros both are elite players and it's pretty hard to say one is "better" than the other (i prefer Ovechkin). Ovechkin brings a physical presence and an unmatched knack for scoring, whereas Crosby is an excellent playmaker and seems to be a natural leader. Ovechkin's physicality could catch up with him though (see Peter Forsberg).
So you don't know how I concluded that in hockey a center is more important than a wing? And I get the head swirl smiley face?
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
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So you don't know how I concluded that in hockey a center is more important than a wing? And I get the head swirl smiley face?
Yep, it all depends on the player and the team, I really dont think you could say one position is more important than another (aside from goaltending).
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yep, it all depends on the player and the team, I really dont think you could say one position is more important than another (aside from goaltending).
Ok, but if you have two equally talented players like Crosby, Malkin, or Ovechkin (opinion) then the position they play has to take effect. I'd take goaltending out of this equation too, because minus Brodeur or Luongo, there aren't too many out there that can steal Stanley Cups (I'm aware Luongo hasn't and Khabibulin was God when TB won the cup).

I see what you're saying when you say, "depends on the player and the team." If I'm the SJ Sharks and I already have an elite play-making center in Joe Thornton, then naturally Ovechkin would be the "better" player. Or if I'm the Atlanta Thrashers and I already have an elite goal-scorer (and nothing else...jk), my choice would easily by Crosby.

A center has to be good at all aspects of hockey - skating, stick-handling, shooting, offensive/defensive positioning, agility, stability, face-offs; he has to cover the center of his own net, dig in the corners in both zones, and essentially make things happen. A wing doesn't have to worry about face-offs, does not have to cover the front of his own net, does not get down low in the corners in the defensive zone, and can often get lazy without definite consequences. IMO a center of equal talent and determination will always be more valuable than a wing.

To simplify this, many see this debate as a goal-scorer vs a passer, and goal-scoring always seems to trump passing. Strange though that historically, the best teams are built around good passers. Gretzky's Oilers, Lemieux's Penguins, Messier's teams, Yzerman's Red Wings, the Sakic/Forsberg Avalanche. Pure goal scorers (Hull, Mogilny, Bure, Selanne, Kovalchuk, Cheechoo, Ovechkin?) have never had a championship team built around them. Brett Hull (perhaps the greatest goal-scorer of all time) got his two Stanley Cups when he became an added piece (to the Stars, to the Wings). Crosby makes the teammates around him always better because he essentially forces them to be apart the scoring, whereas Ovechkin creates his own chances a majority of the time.

When the playoffs come around, good coaches set defensive lines and shadows against pure goal scorers. This nullifies their skill and they can't win a cup. But good passers can find multiple different teammates to finish. This makes them much more valuable than a pure goal scorer. Ovechkin's highlight reel goals and body checks aren't going to amount to much against a well-coached playoff team.
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ok, Lemiuex and Gretzky were both excellent goal scorers aswell as playmakers though, and goal scorers such as Richard, Lafleur, Bossy, and Jagr all have multiple cups. The fact is you need both playmakers and goal scorers to win a cup, one without the other is fairly ineffective. As for centermen being more defensively responsible, Lemieux and Gretzky were notoriously poor defenders and Ovechkin in particular is better defensively than both Crosby and Malkin.
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Ok, Lemiuex and Gretzky were both excellent goal scorers as well as playmakers though
Gretzky is known primiarily as a passer. He's always had a pass first mentality, regardless of how many goals he's scored. Lemieux was the best pure goal-scorer of the bunch mentioned, but even he was considered a playmaker. Ovy has more goals than assists, everyone else on the list does not.

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goal scorers such as Richard, Lafleur, Bossy, and Jagr all have multiple cups.
Firstly, Jagr is a playmaker as well. He's scored 62 goals before, but that was playing on a line with Mario and Francis (one of the best passers ever)...not too bad. He also won two cups as a rookie on Mario's coattails and didn't really come close again afterwards. The team he played on consisted of Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, Coffey, Murphy, and Mullen. He had both play-makers and goal-scorers with him.

Bossy had a play-maker in Trottier with, but Bossy is kind of an exception to the rule. The guy was a freak. .76 GPG will win games regardless of what team you play for.

Lafleur and Richard...c'mon. Did goalies even have face-masks? And playing on a Canadiens team was a lock for Stanley Cup victories.

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As for centermen being more defensively responsible, Lemieux and Gretzky were notoriously poor defenders.
So because Lemieux and Gretzky were poor defenders, that means wings are more defensively responsible than centers? This part is just true. Anyone who plays the game can tell you that a center plays more defense than a wing.

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and Ovechkin in particular is better defensively than both Crosby and Malkin.
This is just not true. Not really sure how you came up with that, but it's definitely false.
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I do agree that centers are more responsible for it (as you said its common knowledge), but that doesnt mean that all of them are good defensively or that all wingers arent. And all those playmakers you mentioned needed the goalscorers just as much as the scorers needed them. Malkin and Crosby are BRUTAL defenders dude, not that Ovvy is great, but they are so slack on defense and it was their undoing in the playoffs. I still feel the bottomline is it's a player by player basis and position really doesnt matter.
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Alex no doubt and every GM in the league will say so. Why?

Alex will fight you anytime, he can score at any moment and in the last 2 minutes of the game he is the most dangerous person in the league. He is entertaining and what really puts him over Crosby is one thing...he is having the time of his life. He's like a kid out there, living the dream and doing what he loves. I mean it's not a job to him, it's his passion. Have you ever seen someone who scores 50+ goals each season go absolutely ballistic every time he scores? I don't.

Don't get me wrong, Crosby is one of the most talented players ever to grace the hockey rink, but Ovechkin brings more than just talent, he brings an attitude no one can duplicate and too me in any sport.
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