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Takedown Defense

3K views 25 replies 10 participants last post by  xeberus 
#1 ·
Yes, I know that this thread exists on page 9 in the grappling section, but I'd like to revitalize it here. Similar to the clinch, even though grappling is involved, I consider TD defense to be more of a standup thing.

Anyway, I'd just like to here people's thoughts on TD defense, their favorite methods against defending various takedowns, and so on.

Though I like sprawling, since it works well and gives me the chance to spin and take my opponents back, I prefer another method if I'm intent on keeping the fight standing at all costs. Its called the 'angle out & pop' method, and I'm surprised by how few people know of it. It works great for defending against someone who's shooting for the legs.

Rather than sprawling, you skip your legs away from your opponent's reach at an angle. If you go straight back, you'll do nothing but prolong the takedown. The second part of this maneuver is equally simple. You just push both arms against your opponents head or shoulders. If done correctly, this sends your opponent falling facefirst into the mat -- or leaves him very offbalanced at the very LEAST.

This is because of two things. First and foremost, you're out of the proverbial line of fire. As such, your adversary can do nothing more than fly by you. But wait! Couldn't he make a last-second adjustment or reach out and grab you anyways? No -- not if you've adequately performed the 'pop.' Your little shove locks your opponent on his original course, and prevents him from turning towards you. However, it doesn't really halt his momentum. Thus, its quite difficult for him to NOT go spiralling off-balance.
 
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#5 ·
So your idea of td defense is just to stay away from them? Lol. If someone shoots at you and grabs you it's hard to just "move out of the way." Sprawling is used when you are UNABLE to just simply move away.
 
#6 ·
hmmm you can kinda do this in wrestling but they can post your arms up and reshoot since your arms are extending. i prefer to down block by placing one hand on the mat and moving the leg back they are shooting on and blocking the shot with my head and other arm....
 
#7 · (Edited)
wukkadb said:
So your idea of td defense is just to stay away from them? Lol. If someone shoots at you and grabs you it's hard to just "move out of the way." Sprawling is used when you are UNABLE to just simply move away.
Wukkadb, please note that this is ONE method of takedown defense, which is appropriate for certain circumstances and certain intents. Sprawling is another method, which fits different intentions.

Nonetheless, you clearly misunderstand what the angle and pop is -- as is evident in your comment. Yes, it ishard to just "move out of the way" after someone has already grabbed you. In fact, it is impossible to do so. But there lies the point. The method I've described is done to prevent yourself from even being grabbed. For that matter, a sprawl also works MUCH better if its done before being grabbed. =P

But one last time, I'd like to emphasize that the angle and pop is much more than simply staying away. Yes, half of it is evasion through footwork. However, that alone would not be enough, since someone can obviously change directions. But, if you're applying that pressure to their head, they are locked in their original shot.


If you are unclear on how this works, I'd suggest you re-read the starting post of this topic. But, anyways...

While the angle and pop does not necessarily place you in a definitively advantageous position, it has no less merit than -- say -- stepping away from a strike. While one might step away from a dangerous blow, so as not to risk the consequences of failing a more complicated action, it does nothing to advance the defender's position. As opposed to a more active means of defense, stepping backwards does not place you in position for an easy counter attack. All it does is reset the placement of the combatants, putting returning them to the neutral range/circumstance before any blow was thrown -- but without risk.

However, keep in mind that shooting can get tiring. So by utilizing the angle and pop method, you drain more and more of your adversary's energy with each of their failed attempts. A sprawl, on the other hand, can be easily followed up by then taking your opponent's back or locking him into a dominating clinch (thai clinch or front headlock). As such, it is a prime choice if you'd like to counter attack after their failed shot. If you're the methodical type, putting these two defenses together can yield very favorable results. The angle and pop tires them out, and when you find that your opponent has lost a bit of his gusto, you can sprawl and counter against a weakened foe.

Though, there is another merit of using the angle and pop on its own. Following its success, your opponent may end up on the ground with you standing over him. If this is the case, and he does not regain footing soon enough, you can attempt to pass his guard and/or ground and pound. The alternative to a successful angle and pop is, again, restarting in a neutral position... Albeit, you haven't lost as much energy as your opponent within this exchange.

Again, I'm not trying to sell the angle and pop as the ONLY method for takedown defense. That would be as rediculous as advocating the use of only one type of block. I just wanted to address a very viable option for defending takedowns, since this one isn't very famous.

TheSuplexor said:
hmmm you can kinda do this in wrestling but they can post your arms up and reshoot since your arms are extending...
Though it might seem that way, they actually won't be able to. Your opponent will generally have to touch a hand to the ground to save his balance and you're hands wont be on him for long. By the time his hands are available again, yours should be gone and you ought to be out of range.

Still, thanks for your input. I'd like to experiment with the way that you mentioned. Should my knees be on the ground when I'm doing this? Or, if not, could you describe the correct leg placement?
 
#8 ·
To me it sounds like your stating the obvious but trying to put it into a lot of words making it sound complicated and advanced. Basically what you're saying is don't move straight back, but move to the side? To me it just seems like you have no formal training, have never wrestled, and don't know what it's like to actually grapple with someone. I use this "angle and pop" method vs my little brother all the time, but it only works vs him, because his shoot is terrible and I'm way bigger, stronger, and faster than him. If you were to try your method vs an experienced wrestler you would get taken down probably every time.
 
#9 · (Edited)
wukkadb said:
To me it sounds like your stating the obvious but trying to put it into a lot of words making it sound complicated and advanced. Basically what you're saying is don't move straight back, but move to the side? To me it just seems like you have no formal training, have never wrestled, and don't know what it's like to actually grapple with someone. I use this "angle and pop" method vs my little brother all the time, but it only works vs him, because his shoot is terrible and I'm way bigger, stronger, and faster than him. If you were to try your method vs an experienced wrestler you would get taken down probably every time.
You'd get half-credit if you at least interpreted the footwork correctly. :rolleyes:

I didn't even say move to the side. I said to move back, at a diagonal angle. Sideways doesn't work. But still, you missed a very important point, which I tried to stress. You ALSO shove your opponent's head away with stiff arms.

It's a shame that, to you, it seems I have no training. But then again, considering your other deductions so far, I shouldn't take it too personally.

I have a submission wrestling class available to me 3 times a week, though I usually only go to it on monday and wednesday. I do judo on sundays.

You're right about one thing, though. I have never wrestled -- in the highschool wrestling sense.

EDIT: also, I'm not trying to make anything sound advanced. What I am trying to do is to be thorough in my description, and cover as much as possible. But in the future, I'll do my best to be more concise since my posting has been almost gratiutously long as of late.
 
#10 ·
Kin said:
You'd get half-credit if you at least interpreted the footwork correctly. :rolleyes:

I didn't even say move to the side. I said to move back, at a diagonal angle. Sideways doesn't work. But still, you missed a very important point, which I tried to stress. You ALSO shove your opponent's head away with stiff arms.

It's a shame that, to you, it seems I have no training. But then again, considering your other deductions so far, I shouldn't take it too personally.

I have a submission wrestling class available to me 3 times a week, though I usually only go to it on monday and wednesday. I do judo on sundays.

You're right about one thing, though. I have never wrestled -- in the highschool wrestling sense.

EDIT: also, I'm not trying to make anything sound advanced. What I am trying to do is to be thorough in my description, and cover as much as possible. But in the future, I'll do my best to be more concise since my posting has been almost gratiutously long as of late.
Ok, so your advice to avoid a TD is move out of the way diagonally and then push their head to the ground? I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but you're just stating the obvious man.
 
#11 ·
wukkadb said:
Ok, so your advice to avoid a TD is move out of the way diagonally and then push their head to the ground? I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but you're just stating the obvious man.
Hmm, perhaps, perhaps not. But whether that's true or not, the technique calls for stiff arming the head and pushing it away -- not down. It yields a different -- and in my opinion, more favorable -- result than pushing down.

Still, I haven't come across too many people who use/know of the angle and pop. I'd imagine it would be most useful for strikers who really want nothing to do with the ground, since it doesn't force you into a grappling situation of any sort. Most of that demographic rely only on the sprawl ( and don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with sprawling. I use it much more than the angle and pop), but that significantly increases the chance of things ending up in a grapple (be it ground or clinch).

Anyways, I hadn't intended for this topic to become soley about the angle and pop. I was hoping people would throw in their favorite ways of defending takedowns -- you know, like a group conversation. Bringing that method up was just a conversation starter. I just described one way of doing it, which not too many people I've met know about.

In that spirit, do you have any favorite ways for defending against takedowns, wukkadb?
 
#12 ·
What an incredibly one sided arguement. Thanks for the advice i'll try using it in my next sparring session instead of the sprawl. I can see how it would be an easy way of avoiding the clinch with a possibly larger but less swift opponent and setting up strikes.
 
#13 ·
Deadpool said:
What an incredibly one sided arguement. Thanks for the advice i'll try using it in my next sparring session instead of the sprawl. I can see how it would be an easy way of avoiding the clinch with a possibly larger but less swift opponent and setting up strikes.
My pleasure. I hope it work for you. But, I really want to move this discussion away from that one specific technique and back into the general topic of takedown defense. On that note, how do you like to do it? Or alternately, what do you usually like to do after a sprawl?
 
#14 ·
I think the key to good td defense is having a good, hard sprawl, and having good BALANCE. There's a lot of technique as far as td defense is concerned but balance is really what separates the great from the decent. Watch Mirko Cro Cop vs Yoshida if you want an excellent example of great td defense/balance. Footwork is also essential, but I think a good, fast wrestler is going to get a hold of you the majority of the time. You need to be able to really drop your hips and drop all your weight on them. The key to a good sprawl is really weight distribution, balance, and speed. You have to be able to sprawl on cue, rest your dead weight on your opponent, and keep your balance. It's also important to try and get an underhook, especially if they only grab one of your legs.
 
#15 ·
with anything in fighting you must know & understand both sides of the game.

so to answer you a good take down defence is you must first learn the things need to take someone down & viceverse, this will better help you understand the limitations of what the persons goal is.

you may be able to stuff a single or double, but if your attacked with a hip, shoulder, or sacracfice throw you may be going for a ride if you do not understand how these throws work.
 
#16 ·
I think I've learned this technique in my old Karate/TKD class (yeah, they taught really useful things...not that point mumbo jumbo. The only problem with the class was that it was really really...not instense). I'm not going to act like a "fighting expert" (I'm far from it, really), but this method is actually pretty effective IMO. When your opponent goes for the takedown, you jump back at an angle, while at the same time grabbing onto his shoulders. Since he's moving forward, and you're in the air (at that very moment), you'll be moved with him without having to waste energy...all the while pushing him downwards.

I mean, that's what I think Kin was referring to. I could've interpereted wrong, though.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Trainee said:
I think I've learned this technique in my old Karate/TKD class (yeah, they taught really useful things...not that point mumbo jumbo. The only problem with the class was that it was really really...not instense). I'm not going to act like a "fighting expert" (I'm far from it, really), but this method is actually pretty effective IMO. When your opponent goes for the takedown, you jump back at an angle, while at the same time grabbing onto his shoulders. Since he's moving forward, and you're in the air (at that very moment), you'll be moved with him without having to waste energy...all the while pushing him downwards.

I mean, that's what I think Kin was referring to. I could've interpereted wrong, though.
That's not quite what I meant. In the technique I mentioned, you're not really 'in the air.' Your feet barely leave the mat.

I'm gonna roll with someone later, so I'll see what happens if I jump backwards instead. I've never thought of doing that before. In my mind, it doesn't make much sense, but ya never know 'till you try.

TheNegation said:
Well, I do thaiboxing. I usually employ my 'Knee them in the face strategy'.

You may have seen Hermes franca steal my technique and use it to limited success against sherk.
I also like that move, but rarely get to do it, since most of my sparring partners are not down for knees to the face. Good one, though. :thumbsup:
 
#19 ·
I'm gonna roll with someone later, so I'll see what happens if I jump backwards instead.
Well, you don't really jump backwards. You just lift your feet off the ground, so that your entire body moves with his, without a struggle (basically, he's pushing you backwards, while you're pushing him down). I mean, obviously, this won't work if you're backed up by a wall, but you have to be smart about what you do in a fight...and not attempt to jump backwards if there's a wall right behind you.
 
#20 ·
Trainee said:
Well, you don't really jump backwards. You just lift your feet off the ground, so that your entire body moves with his, without a struggle (basically, he's pushing you backwards, while you're pushing him down). I mean, obviously, this won't work if you're backed up by a wall, but you have to be smart about what you do in a fight...and not attempt to jump backwards if there's a wall right behind you.
Yeah, I ended up not being able to get myself to jump all that high, but I was off the ground. It did work actually. However, my sparring partner is awful at shooting... Mike123 beats me in Judo, but he like...tries to football tackle me and calls it a shot -- all bent over at the waist and stuff. But, yeah, the move you suggested sent him crashing to the floor.

I'll test it more extensively against someone who's better at shooting, when I get the chance.
 
#24 ·
I have been known to throw big fly knees when i see someone go to shoot haha. but mostly I just grab them lean forward while spreading my legs diagonally outward and it generally works on opponents who are either weaker than me or have less skill.

but thats only in sparring where I dont want to harm my partner.

In a real fight ive only been taken down once, and only because I wasnt expecting it. He tackled me so hard he got full mount right off the bat. I grabbed his "genitalia" and sqeezed so hard all my knuckles popped. I got off him after only 3 punches, his eyes were rolled back in his head and he was bleeding from his mouth,nose and left ear. Not my finest moment.

But I dony guess ive ever fought someone with great bjj/wrestling so.. dont take my word that this works on everyone.
 
#25 ·
I grabbed his "genitalia" and sqeezed so hard all my knuckles popped. I got off him after only 3 punches, his eyes were rolled back in his head and he was bleeding from his mouth,nose and left ear. Not my finest moment.
For a second, I thought you did that in a MMA fight. I was like, WTF MAN!
What did that guy do to you...or what did you to him? lol
 
#26 ·
Trainee said:
For a second, I thought you did that in a MMA fight. I was like, WTF MAN!
What did that guy do to you...or what did you to him? lol
HaHa nah it was outside a bar. I was leaving with my gf and this guy yelled "**** you" I e-brake it and step out to some guy mouthing me because im driving a fast car. He said his truck would run it over etc. I said you talk big for a cock sucking ****** and thats when he caught me off guard and brought me down. It was stupid and I regret getting out of my car, I should have kept driving, always avoid fighting whenever you can.
 
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