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Old 11-13-2006, 11:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What is the Tao of the Knee?

First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has responded to my thread regarding the Tao of Elbow strikes;the videos were truly awesome-Master Sken is a true kick-ass take no prisoners mofo and I would love to train with him someday.Following the pointers posted as well as checking out the videos actually has the unexpected bonus of improving a lot of my other techniques.
I notice that, in my thread,"How do you defend against...?" nobody said that there was anything like a defensive tactic against a knee attack analagous to picking off a jab, or parrying a straight right hand,etc.It seems to me, especially after I checked out the awesome knock-out videos that when someone is wide open for a knee:Forget about it!If that knee connects solidly, then someone is in a great position to lose the fight!
So:just like with the Tao of Elbow strikes, what do I need to know about the various offensive uses of the knee? What do I need to keep in mind? And what are the best methods for training the Knee for offensive purposes?
Thanx everybody! Ferdelance
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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First, I want to make a little note. My friend and I watched a tape on fight science and saw Melchor Menor (a fantastic Thai Kickboxer) deliver a knee, which they concluded to be the most powerful strike. It has the power of a 35mph car crash.

The first part of the knee is body position. The legs have to be out behind you so that they can spring forward. In the flying knee this is the product of a jump, in the clinch you sprawl your legs back before you strike. This is one reason why knees can also be used from the sprawl.

Then you have to force the knee forward, not up into your chest as some people make the mistake of doing. The key is precision, really. It will severely damage anywhere it lands, but it does the most damage to a fighter in the solarplexus and, obviously, the face.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ferd--I should have more in-depth stuff on the "How-to Defend" thread later on. And I will address the Knee. I promise.

Ironman would be correct on the basis’ that he covered with the knee. I think I'll take it a step further and expound on a few things:

First thing to consider when throwing a knee (actually all strikes) is range. Most people think that Knees are purely "inside" weapons (aside from a jumping/flying knee), but the truth is that if you can reach out and touch someone with your hands you can knee them also. In fact, most of the texts I’ve read advocate that you have at least a hand on your opponent when you throw the knee, as throwing the knee generally upsets your base by leaving you with only one post on the ground. Further, your grip can be used to pull the opponent into the knee which benefits you twofold by helping you ensure that the knee will hit, and by helping the generation of force by accelerate your target toward you.

Knees should be thrown with a “rear leg” bias in order to generate any consequential stopping power. Even if you want to throw a knee with your front leg, you would have to do a quick “shift step” to change leads so that your front leg ends up cocked to the rear to fire. Otherwise you don’t have enough distance to accelerate your leg to generate the maximum amount of stopping power.

To throw a straight free-standing knee, or knee outside of the clinch (khow in Muay Thai):
1) Push off your rear foot while you use your front foot to bring you forward (just like coming out of the bottom of a deep lunge).
2) Rotate the striking side of your hips toward the target.
3) Bring your knee in a straight line into your target, making sure to connect with the point of the knee.
4) Punch you hips forward as your knee connects (this makes the difference between throwing a knee, and throwing a knee with bad intentions).

The reason why knees are so damaging is the fact that the movement involved to throw a knee always effectively moves your total center of mass toward the target. This is unlike a punch that can be thrown “arm only” without the benefit of the rest of your body mass. Remember: Force = Mass X Acceleration. As the legs account for anywhere from 30% to 40% of our body mass, the only thing you have to concern yourself (besides actually connecting with the target) is generating speed. On that end, throw knees with an emphasis on speed as the mass is already there.

This vid here is a great example of a properly thrown knee.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Much appreciated, Ong. I'm not much of a standup fighter. While my knees, elbows and brawling is solid, I'm not really proficient enough to describe stuff.

Thanks.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 11-15-2006, 10:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onganju
Ferd--I should have more in-depth stuff on the "How-to Defend" thread later on. And I will address the Knee. I promise.

Ironman would be correct on the basis’ that he covered with the knee. I think I'll take it a step further and expound on a few things:

First thing to consider when throwing a knee (actually all strikes) is range. Most people think that Knees are purely "inside" weapons (aside from a jumping/flying knee), but the truth is that if you can reach out and touch someone with your hands you can knee them also. In fact, most of the texts I’ve read advocate that you have at least a hand on your opponent when you throw the knee, as throwing the knee generally upsets your base by leaving you with only one post on the ground. Further, your grip can be used to pull the opponent into the knee which benefits you twofold by helping you ensure that the knee will hit, and by helping the generation of force by accelerate your target toward you.

Knees should be thrown with a “rear leg” bias in order to generate any consequential stopping power. Even if you want to throw a knee with your front leg, you would have to do a quick “shift step” to change leads so that your front leg ends up cocked to the rear to fire. Otherwise you don’t have enough distance to accelerate your leg to generate the maximum amount of stopping power.

To throw a straight free-standing knee, or knee outside of the clinch (khow in Muay Thai):
1) Push off your rear foot while you use your front foot to bring you forward (just like coming out of the bottom of a deep lunge).
2) Rotate the striking side of your hips toward the target.
3) Bring your knee in a straight line into your target, making sure to connect with the point of the knee.
4) Punch you hips forward as your knee connects (this makes the difference between throwing a knee, and throwing a knee with bad intentions).

The reason why knees are so damaging is the fact that the movement involved to throw a knee always effectively moves your total center of mass toward the target. This is unlike a punch that can be thrown “arm only” without the benefit of the rest of your body mass. Remember: Force = Mass X Acceleration. As the legs account for anywhere from 30% to 40% of our body mass, the only thing you have to concern yourself (besides actually connecting with the target) is generating speed. On that end, throw knees with an emphasis on speed as the mass is already there.

This vid here is a great example of a properly thrown knee.
Thanx. I agree that here you have made a truly outstanding post.But this brings up my second question:What are the best methods for training the knee, and training for speed, especially speed in the knee strike.In the video you posted, that was an awesome knee attack. Awesome.
I think that it proves your thesis about speed;although, it seems to me that speed should be the ultimate concern of any technique,offensive or defensive.If an attack is not fast enough,it comes almost with a guarantee that it will fail because:a)the opponent will see it and block it,b)the opponent will see it and dodge it, or c) the opponent will fire one off(beat you to the punch, so to speak).
Thanx again for a tremendous post-FErdelance
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferdelance
Thanx. I agree that here you have made a truly outstanding post.But this brings up my second question:What are the best methods for training the knee, and training for speed, especially speed in the knee strike.In the video you posted, that was an awesome knee attack. Awesome.
I think that it proves your thesis about speed;although, it seems to me that speed should be the ultimate concern of any technique,offensive or defensive.If an attack is not fast enough,it comes almost with a guarantee that it will fail because:a)the opponent will see it and block it,b)the opponent will see it and dodge it, or c) the opponent will fire one off(beat you to the punch, so to speak).
Thanx again for a tremendous post-FErdelance
Ironically speaking, but sprints (high-knee, windsprints, bleacher runs) may be some of the best ways to help develop speed while throwing the knee. To fine tune the technique rounds on the heavy bag to perfect form is invaluable. If at any time you want to perfect knees in a clinch, that will require a partner and some pads. In the clinch situation control is paramount to being able to effectively throw knees.
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:44 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Get your hands on any fights with Anderson Silva....he's got a really really good MT clinch and he puts his kness to great use (specifically his fight with Rich Franklin, you;ll see how deadly the knee can be in close)

Another great fighter is Wanderlei Silva, often uses vicious knees from the clinch (Pride bout against Quinton Jackson is a good example)
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