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Old 11-06-2009, 09:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Many MMA fighters will block with their forearms instead of with the gloves as you had suggested. Anderson Silva uses a boxing type posture too and those bobs and weaves are from boxing too. He doesn't get hit though.
However, your alternative suggestion is very good. Hope you can demonstrate it as successfully as Machida. His defense is very different from typical boxing cover.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Onganju View Post
No... the boxing guard didn't "fail." Actually, Ortiz simply forgot one of the cardinal rules in striking defense. Simply put, if you defend, you better throw one back or get the hell out of there. That applies to MT, Kyokushin, Boxing or any other striking art.

Where most MMA guys fail is that the majority of them are not good enough strikers in the first place. It doesn't matter if they were fighting with 16oz gloves or 4oz gloves. If you think that simply covering up is going to keep you safe, you are going to get overwhelmed, just like Ortiz did against Liddell, or like McCarthy against Bisping, or Struve against Dos Santos.

By the way, blocking with big gloves isn't any easier. In fact, if you are really working on having good defense, you aren't going to offer yourself as a static target in the first place. The whole "can't defend punches because the gloves are small" is a cop-out myth held high by those who don't have a solid striking tool box. Foot work, head movement, timing, and rhythm are part of the striking arsenal and is a lot harder to learn than just being able to hit hard. Most MMA competitors don't have that part.

I go into detail on this very subject here and here. It works, most guys just aren't that good at it.

Yeah. Taking punches with the boxing guard isn't going to guarantee that you won't be knocked out. It's only a temporary slow down the punch type tactic to get out of there.

If all you're doing is throwing your hands up to stop the punches, you're getting knocked out anyways.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:58 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Onganju View Post
You do realize that before the inception of the Marquois of Queensbury rules, boxing was a bare-knuckle contest? The modern approach to boxing defense encompasses a lot more than covering up, and it's applicable regardless of whether you have gloves or not.

Not to be too critical, but I don't see how how a "boxing stance" would be something that has come into use because modern mufflers were put into place. I don't see how having a good base, being light on your feet, having your hands up and tight to you, and having you chin tucked became required because you put gloves on.

Believe me I don't want to bait an argument, but I don't see how knowledgeable, practicing Martial Artists or MMA fans still cling to the myth that boxing technique and defense is only applicable when wearing "16oz pillows" on your hands. I can only assume that due to their limited exposure to boxing training that they take being able to cover up as the end all be all of defensive technique in boxing, when that just inst the case. Yeah, if you're new to boxing they are going to teach you how to cover up first. But after that there is a largely comprehensive amount of techniques that take a long time to learn and even longer to master. Just look up any videos of Pernell Whitaker, Willie Pep or Floyd Mayweather Jr to see what I mean.
Well you're screwed, cuz that needs addressing.

There are aspects of the boxing guard, i.e. hook defense that are effective there is no doubt. However I do not understand, and suspect I never will understand, the logic in "tanking" your opponents strikes. Why would you curl up your forearms and allow your opponent to punch at you looking for a hole? That is the reason I hated boxing (that and the senseless in-round hugging after combinations). It is, in my own opinion, a senseless way to defend ones self.
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
Well you're screwed, cuz that needs addressing.

There are aspects of the boxing guard, i.e. hook defense that are effective there is no doubt. However I do not understand, and suspect I never will understand, the logic in "tanking" your opponents strikes. Why would you curl up your forearms and allow your opponent to punch at you looking for a hole? That is the reason I hated boxing (that and the senseless in-round hugging after combinations). It is, in my own opinion, a senseless way to defend ones self.
Look man, if you are defending yourself correctly you are not going to be there to be hit, or leave yourself in a position to be hit cleanly. If you think that blocking is the only thing that equates defense in any striking art, then there is a lot more that needs to be explained to you than anyone can go over in a paltry forum posts' worth of information.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:02 AM   #15 (permalink)
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However, since I've put up a lot of info already, let's see if a little cut and paste will help shed light on the question. I posted this originally in an old thread (here):

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All defensive technique should be followed with a counter attack. If you are against an aggressive opponent, or any opponent who is trying to win, you cannot realistically expect them to finish their attack and politely allow you your own salvo afterwards. With an aggressive opponent, they will simply continue to attack until they are stopped or they have completely overwhelmed and finished you. So every defense should be followed with a counter.

In my research, Striking defense can be broken down into four (4) different types of techniques. This is what they are, and this is how they differ:

Interrupt/Faster/Pre-Emptive Attack: This is simply hitting the opponent with a faster attack while they are in the midst of attacking you. This can be a straight punch as your opponent winds up their overhand right, a pushing kick as your opponent chambers their own kick, or a knee to the opponent’s head as they try to shoot. This is the “Intercepting fist” of Jeet Kune Do. In this method, you strike the opponent when you first recognize that they are attacking. In this method, the counter attack is already included as it occurs at the moment of defense.

Dodging/Evasion: As Mr. Miyagi would say, “Best defense… You no be there!” This requires trained body movement (both upper body and foot work) to stymie your opponent’s attack by causing it to miss. Now, this is not any intricate or acrobatic type movement. Nope, no Matrix bridges here. Rather these are economic movements that will cause your opponents to miss while you move into a position to attack them while they are out of position to defend. Ducking, slipping, side-stepping, back-pedaling and retreating all fall into this type of defense.

Deflect/Catch: Not a true block, but a simple push, pull or cutting into the strike angle of the attacking limb while moving into an angle that gives you an advantage for countering with strikes. Likewise, catching the limb of the attacker in order to control them as you counter with a strike or grapple also falls into this category of defense. This method of defense is usually the hardest to master, but can make a competitor dangerous to aggressive opponents. By using the energy of an opponent’s attack to pull them into position for a counter, or to create an opening for attack, more effective counter attacks can be made.

Cover Up/Blocking: Many times attacks can be so sudden, or occur in such close quarters that dodging or catching them are not possible. In that case, one may only be able to defend themselves by bring up a barrier to block the attack. This may be your arm, your legs, your shoulders, knees or elbows. As long at the attacking limb does not effectively hit a vital point, the block goes a long way to mitigate the force of your opponent’s attacks. This is the simplest type of defense to learn, as it is the most instinctive. However, as a rule one should always implement the other defensive methods first. With a block, you always end up absorbing the brunt of your opponent’s attack which can result in cumulative damage to your fighting limbs.
Here's a little info on basic defense theorem fromt he same thread:

Quote:
The reason why I am going into this first over the other types of defense is that this is the easiest to learn, and takes the shortest amount of time to engrain into your reflexes. The great thing about the straight boxing defense is that is not only applicable against punches, but it works well against kicking attacks from the waist up. Before I get into the specific techniques themselves, let me go over some basic Theorem.

Learning Defense: The TMA Method
Defense as it is taught within the general TMA styles can be described as routinely drilling your specific blocking techniques as designed for specific attacks. Once one drills the technique against the air, it is then moved over into “application” within 1 or 2-step forms or katas of defense. Within many TMA styles the terms of “Upper Outside Block,” “Lower Outside Sweep,” “X-block,” or other similar techniques are taught and trained to be implemented as one recognizes the type of attack that technique is designed for. Essentially the multitude of TMA went through the same route training as Ralph Machio in “The Karate Kid” without actually painting the floor or throwing back shots of Sake with Arnold from “Happy Days.”

The grand flaw in the practice of Defense within TMA styles is that when faced with an opponent in real life, it became obvious that actual live, resisting, and aggressive opponents did not have the tendency to attack with the same compliance or roboticism as their training partners in the Dojo. Rather, they were soon introduced to the painful reality that when one decides to swing, they usually don’t just swing once, and that fights tend to continue on even if the initial set of techniques are actually successful. On that end, many TMA practitioners found themselves “painting the floor” with their own faces.

Going beyond that, if one took the time to step away from the katas and examine the actual practice of styles during “freestyle” sparring, it became obvious that the standard prescribed techniques fell to the wayside in favor of movement and aggression. Those who rigidly followed the basics of the Dojo only found success when seemingly discarding years of technical defensive training. Obviously, something was amiss.

Learning Defense: Modern Boxing Method
On the other side of the coin, modern boxing practitioners forged further with making “the sweet science” actually more scientific. Although a combat sport far removed from MMA, it is put into practice on a regular basis by many MMA competitors. Why? Well, there are a few reasons:

1) Boxing is taught and practiced under “live” sparring conditions. Sure there are drills that will be run, but all the true learning is done during sparring when one figures out what works. In this end, the practitioner is placed deeply in the chaos that is combat and is placed in that situation until it comes to an end. Nothing was routine or robotic.
2) The defensive blocking/cover techniques were simple and intuitive. When training to learn a boxing defense, one is taught simple covers and is trained to defend the angle of attack not specific techniques. On that end, one can assure that they know how to defend themselves even when the levels of stress and fatigue increase. With the TMA method once the level of stress and fatigue goes beyond the normal threshold of the practitioner, fine distinction between one technique to another becomes highly difficult (close to impossible) causing the practitioner to either be too late in choosing a defensive technique, or intuitively choose the wrong technique altogether. Suffice it to say, that doesn’t work out well if a fight goes past the initial set of techniques.
3) Boxers are taught to incorporate upper body mobility and footwork to ensure that they don’t get hit. Where the TMA method relies solely on the power of the blocking technique to meet force with force, the modern boxer is taught to cover and move out of the way of the incoming attack. In the rigidity of forms that are engrained into the mind and habits of the TMA practitioner, they find themselves offering too many openings to an opponent even if they successfully block the incoming attack.

On those points above, when trained properly on how to box the MMA practitioner becomes a more mobile and slippery opponent. It does not do any MMA practitioner well to “take one” in hopes to land their own. Why? Because it only takes one shot that is either hard enough or placed in the right spot to turn a fight around. Personally speaking, I read the above posts soliciting the idea of taking a shot to the body in order to land one to the head and I couldn’t help but shake my head in disgust. If you are fighting against someone who likes throwing body shots (like Rutten, Hominick, Hoost, etc) or you get hit in the liver or solar plexus, you find out very well that such a mindset is hindrance to actually becoming a better fighter.
If you want more or have something specific you want me to answer, please do.
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:29 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Onganju View Post
Look man, if you are defending yourself correctly you are not going to be there to be hit, or leave yourself in a position to be hit cleanly. If you think that blocking is the only thing that equates defense in any striking art, then there is a lot more that needs to be explained to you than anyone can go over in a paltry forum posts' worth of information.

When did I ever say I thought that blocking as all there is to defense? Never, don't make assumptions about my knowledge without taking a moment to check out my other posts. I am aware evasiveness, footwork, and head movement are as important, if not more important. All I am saying is that when you are in a position where you are unable to 1. evade the punch by circling out, 2. bob to avoid the punch, why would you wrap your arms to protect your head and absorb the impact? It makes no sense when any human being is perfectly able to snap a forearm across and deflect said punch, putting your opponent off balance and perfectly positioned for a counter.
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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There's not too much I can mention that Onganju hasn't pretty much covered. I'll add a few notes of my own anyway, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
It makes no sense when any human being is perfectly able to snap a forearm across and deflect said punch, putting your opponent off balance and perfectly positioned for a counter.
Using an interception (or deflect, as Onganju referred to them as) type of block is like an old western shoot out. Your opponent or enemy throwing his punch is like him pulling his pistol, you trying to deflect his blow is like you trying to pull your pistol quicker than him. If you're not quick enough on the draw to out shoot him, then you probably never should've pulled your burner.

My point is that to effectively parry/deflect/intercept a punch requires an almost ridiculous amount of speed, accuracy, dexterity, and reaction. If you fail to effectively do so, then you're in a worse bind than if you had just covered up, I'd wager.

For the record, I'm a "traditionalist" that uses mainly interception style blocking. I may be a traditionalist, but I'm also a realist, and I recognize that there's a time and a place for covering up. It has its purpose, just like my interception blocks have their time and place and purpose.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:23 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I think the biggest issue arrising from the boxing stance is that its designed to be used with the larger gloves. Whereas Martial Arts that were invented before the advent of padded gloves include more versatile deflection and countering guards and less of the curling up guard.
Sir, if you look at the original post in response you will see the portion that I quoted. My issues is that the notion that "the boxing stance [and in effect its methodology of defense] is that its designed to be used with the larger gloves" is completely false. That is what I take umbrance to.

Anyone who thinks that defense in boxing only works because of "16oz pillows" is a ******* IDIOT. There I said it. I'm not going to be nice about it anymore. Does that clear it up?

There is nothing else that needs to be said about it.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:31 AM   #19 (permalink)
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On a parting note, if you are actually taking up boxing to become a skilled striker, you will know that you want to work on a lot of other things to go along with the standard covers to round out your defensive repetoire. This is so you can make the most out of each opportunity to actually hit your opponent without offering yourself as a target.

Skill practice of that works regardless of whether or not you are wearing boxing gloves or not.

To go along with the TS post, he mentioned Tito and Chuck. Did the boxing guard fail? No, Tito failed. He forgot the first cardinal rule of striking defense (and this applies if you are doing Muay Thai, Kyoukushin, Tae Kwon Do, Sanshou or any flavor of striking). That rule is this: If you defend a shot, you better throw one back or get the hell out of there. That is applicable regardless of the striking style you practice, boxing gloves or no boxing gloves.
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Old 04-09-2010, 10:21 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Sir, if you look at the original post in response you will see the portion that I quoted. My issues is that the notion that "the boxing stance [and in effect its methodology of defense] is that its designed to be used with the larger gloves" is completely false. That is what I take umbrance to.

Anyone who thinks that defense in boxing only works because of "16oz pillows" is a ******* IDIOT. There I said it. I'm not going to be nice about it anymore. Does that clear it up?

There is nothing else that needs to be said about it.
You've preceeded to insult me because I dislike the principles of the boxing guard. Though I find this disconcerting, and makes your overall opinion less important to me, I believe you're still an intelligent person worth debating with.

I find that an interceptive blocking system opens up far more opportunities to counter than curling up and allowing your oppponent to strike at you. As for stating that the most important rule of the boxing guard is that "you had better throw back if someone throws at you," that is one of the fundamental flaws in the theory. You allow your opponent to set the pace and that puts the user of the afore mentioned guard in a tougher position than he had to be in.

Stating "stance" was a mistake on my part and I apologize, in the case of this discussion, I meant guard. Though there are instances where the stance also gives pause, in that it is a tall and centered stance, making it easier for your opponent to shoot for takedowns, and harder to spread and defend them. But that is another issue for another thread.
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