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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 10:37 AM
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Since when did boxers use 16 ounce gloves haha
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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
I find that an interceptive blocking system opens up far more opportunities to counter than curling up and allowing your oppponent to strike at you. As for stating that the most important rule of the boxing guard is that "you had better throw back if someone throws at you," that is one of the fundamental flaws in the theory. You allow your opponent to set the pace and that puts the user of the afore mentioned guard in a tougher position than he had to be in.
No offense taken. BTW - If you insist that Boxing Defense is truly weighed on it's "blocking system" then you are purposely choosing to ignore all the other tenets of Boxing defense as a whole.

As far as that most important rule, like I said before it applies to all striking arts. It is in no way exclusive to boxing. If you are meaning to imply that anyone, Boxer, Muay Thai Boxer, Shotokan Artist, TKD'ist, Sanda practitioner, Fencer or even grapplers are privy not to same principles, you would be wrong.

And thank you again for taking only a part of my statement, as the whole statement reads "If you defend a shot, you better throw one back or get the hell out of there." Let's see how that applies to a Muay Thai leg kick:

Opponent throws a leg kick, practitioner has a few options. Firstly: Teep your opponent or throw a cross right down the pipe to counter. Secondly: Step back and then attack as the leg goes by, or create more space to reset your position. Thirdly: Scoop/Catch the kick and either drive a cross to the opponent's face or sweep the leg. Fourthly: Check the kick and either move out of range or counter with a shot of your own or clinch.

That would apply to a grappler in MMA in the same instance too, but he would have the option clinch and takedown their opponent. How the hell is that not applicable?

Furthermore: How the hell is that only applicable if someone is wearing boxing gloves?

On a side note: I hold those who insist that Boxing principles do not work in a realm where modern boxing gloves/mufflers (aka: big ass pillows) are not used in the same light as those who insist that training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in a gi is not "realistic" or useless for MMA. Both views are assinine in a manner completely past ignorance and hold no weight in even the slightest hypothetical sense. I will openly express my distaste for such comments and I won't apologize for it either.

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Last edited by Onganju; 04-09-2010 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Aside thoughts added...
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 02:20 PM
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No offense taken. BTW - If you insist that Boxing Defense is truly weighed on it's "blocking system" then you are purposely choosing to ignore all the other tenets of Boxing defense as a whole.

As far as that most important rule, like I said before it applies to all striking arts. It is in no way exclusive to boxing. If you are meaning to imply that anyone, Boxer, Muay Thai Boxer, Shotokan Artist, TKD'ist, Sanda practitioner, Fencer or even grapplers are privy to same principles, you would be wrong.

And thank you again for taking only a part of my statement, as the whole statement reads "If you defend a shot, you better throw one back or get the hell out of there." Let's see how that applies to a Muay Thai leg kick:

Opponent throws a leg kick, practitioner has a few options. Firstly: Teep your opponent or throw a cross right down the pipe to counter. Secondly: Step back and then attack as the leg goes by, or create more space to reset your position. Thirdly: Scoop/Catch the kick and either drive a cross to the opponent's face or sweep the leg. Fourthly: Check the kick and either move out of range or counter with a shot of your own or clinch.

That would apply to a grappler in MMA in the same instance too, but he would have the option clinch and takedown their opponent. How the hell is that not applicable?

Furthermore: How the hell is that only applicable if someone is wearing boxing gloves?
Okay wow, there's a lot to discuss here.

On the count of the other tenants of boxing. I never said they weren't useful. Things like head movement, footwork, etc are exceedingly important we were discussing the guard, not the art's entire defensive applications. I never mentioned the evasive nature of Shotokan's defense, or the circular nature of Shaolin Kung Fu as alternatives, because they do not relate to guard. Our interpretation of that term may differ, but mine may appear obvious by the previously enumerated subjects that I believe differ.

I don't consider checking a leg kick as a part of the boxing guard in the manner we were discussing, i.e. its applications in defense of punches. Checking leg kicks is of course a form of absorbtion defense, but it is one that is effective beyond contestation. But I don't consider any of the various ways to counter, evade or check a leg kick to have anything to do with the boxing guard as you and I are debating. Since its not designed to protect the legs, funny how that logic works.

Further my dislike of the boxing guard is more heavily based on the allowance of the opponent to strike at will, and move at your opponent's pace, rather than intercepting and possibly overbalancing your opponent rather than the boxing gloves, which I refuse to state have not played a part in the evolution of the boxing guard. As for Brazilian Jui-jitsu, I have never and never will state that because there is no gi in MMA, the moves are less useful. I would appreciate it if you stopped insenuating that i am ignorant, or assinine or any of the other things you stated.



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Last edited by Squirrelfighter; 04-09-2010 at 02:32 PM.
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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
Okay wow, there's a lot to discuss here.

On the count of the other tenants of boxing. I never said they weren't useful. Things like head movement, footwork, etc are exceedingly important we were discussing the guard, not the art's entire defensive applications. I never mentioned the evasive nature of Shotokan's defense, or the circular nature of Shaolin Kung Fu as alternatives, because they do not relate to guard. Our interpretation of that term may differ, but mine may appear obvious by the previously enumerated subjects that I believe differ.

I don't consider checking a leg kick as a part of the boxing guard in the manner we were discussing, i.e. its applications in defense of punches. Checking leg kicks is of course a form of absorbtion defense, but it is one that is effective beyond contestation. But I don't consider any of the various ways to counter, evade or check a leg kick to have anything to do with the boxing guard as you and I are debating. Since its not designed to protect the legs, funny how that logic works.

Further my dislike of the boxing guard is more heavily based on the allowance of the opponent to strike at will, and move at your opponent's pace, rather than intercepting and possibly overbalancing your opponent rather than the boxing gloves, which I refuse to state have not played a part in the evolution of the boxing guard. As for Brazilian Jui-jitsu, I have never and never will state that because there is no gi in MMA, the moves are less useful. I would appreciate it if you stopped insenuating that i am ignorant, or assinine or any of the other things you stated.
I am sorry sir, you have completely failed to pick up anything that I addressed. You are offering me a lot of theory based on ad-hominem observations. I simply elaborated that the first rule of STRIKING defense (as was stated above) was completely relevant to other styles with an example of a leg kick.

I don't know how you missed that. If you are choosing to omit that and put that aside, there is really nothing else I can offer to you.

And again, none of that is dependant on modern boxing gloves.

It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree... As long as I don't bore you and I spark a moment of thought, my goal is achieved.

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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onganju View Post
I am sorry sir, you have completely failed to pick up anything that I addressed. You are offering me a lot of theory based on ad-hominem observations. I simply elaborated that the first rule of STRIKING defense (as was stated above) was completely relevant to other styles with an example of a leg kick.

I don't know how you missed that. If you are choosing to omit that and put that aside, there is really nothing else I can offer to you.

And again, none of that is dependant on modern boxing gloves.
On the contrary, you stated there was more to the boxing defensive system than simply guarding a punch. And explained those ideas with the example of a leg kick. I stated that I was under the impression we were discussing the guard accociated with western boxing. I pointed out that you were referencing something other than guard to imply that I was somehow incorrect in my belief there is a more logical guard than the one accociated with boxing.

I ask you how exactly does referencing another aspect of the defensive structure have any relevance to the specific area where we disagree? I never stated any aspects of the the boxing defensive system was inferior in any way(except for the guard), it is simply my belief that there is a more effective method than what is present in the western boxing guard.

As for basing my opinions on my own experiences, of course I do! How else can I base any kind of opinion other than my own experience? I have researched, and used a boxing guard, as well as an interceptive guard. And in my opinion, and from what I consider a logical stand point, the interceptive path is more effective.

And enough about the gloves. Though they were the catalyst for our disagreement. We're beyond 16oz vs 4oz. This disagreement is about the basic fundamentals of the western boxing guard compared to the interceptive guard used in some other martial arts. By continuing to reference something that has become immaterial you are showing a distinct lack of tact.



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Last edited by Squirrelfighter; 04-09-2010 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Gloves! Gloves? That's still that important?
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