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-   -   The boxing guard, is it overrated? (http://www.mmaforum.com/standup-technique/64909-boxing-guard-overrated.html)

Ninjadude 11-01-2009 12:16 PM

The boxing guard, is it overrated?
 
Do you guys remember Liddel against Ortiz, when Liddel sent a barrage of punches to an Ortiz who was trying to protect himself, and sent him to the mat?

It is known already that boxing with 16 onces gloves and 4 onces gloves is not the same. Its not so much the attack that is different, but more the defense. Well, big gloves offer defense because they have size and are like cushions. Also, its easier to block a big glove form coming in, because of its size mainly. With 4 onces gloves who don't offer protection, the punches just sneek in the boxing guard easily, and the fist coming in is smaller too...

So why do the MMA guys keep practicing American boxing? I see it all the time, how the boxing defense fails MMA fighters in the cage...

I'm thinking to myself why don't MMA fighters use the chinese boxing approach more. I remember when I was practicing wing-chung, all those blocks and sticky hands techniques... They were effective.

What do you guys think?

Tyson2011 11-01-2009 12:19 PM

i find the easiest way to block if to either put your palm on the back of your head, to put the forearm in place to take the shot to the side of the head, or on the top of your head infront of your face for the forearm to take teh blow again..that said, the best block is to simply not be in the way of the punch :)

Onganju 11-03-2009 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjadude (Post 1032967)
Do you guys remember Liddel against Ortiz, when Liddel sent a barrage of punches to an Ortiz who was trying to protect himself, and sent him to the mat?

It is known already that boxing with 16 onces gloves and 4 onces gloves is not the same. Its not so much the attack that is different, but more the defense. Well, big gloves offer defense because they have size and are like cushions. Also, its easier to block a big glove form coming in, because of its size mainly. With 4 onces gloves who don't offer protection, the punches just sneek in the boxing guard easily, and the fist coming in is smaller too...

So why do the MMA guys keep practicing American boxing? I see it all the time, how the boxing defense fails MMA fighters in the cage...

I'm thinking to myself why don't MMA fighters use the chinese boxing approach more. I remember when I was practicing wing-chung, all those blocks and sticky hands techniques... They were effective.

What do you guys think?

No... the boxing guard didn't "fail." Actually, Ortiz simply forgot one of the cardinal rules in striking defense. Simply put, if you defend, you better throw one back or get the hell out of there. That applies to MT, Kyokushin, Boxing or any other striking art.

Where most MMA guys fail is that the majority of them are not good enough strikers in the first place. It doesn't matter if they were fighting with 16oz gloves or 4oz gloves. If you think that simply covering up is going to keep you safe, you are going to get overwhelmed, just like Ortiz did against Liddell, or like McCarthy against Bisping, or Struve against Dos Santos.

By the way, blocking with big gloves isn't any easier. In fact, if you are really working on having good defense, you aren't going to offer yourself as a static target in the first place. The whole "can't defend punches because the gloves are small" is a cop-out myth held high by those who don't have a solid striking tool box. Foot work, head movement, timing, and rhythm are part of the striking arsenal and is a lot harder to learn than just being able to hit hard. Most MMA competitors don't have that part.

I go into detail on this very subject here and here. It works, most guys just aren't that good at it.

Squirrelfighter 11-05-2009 08:22 AM

I think the biggest issue arrising from the boxing stance is that its designed to be used with the larger gloves. Whereas Martial Arts that were invented before the advent of padded gloves include more versatile deflection and countering guards and less of the curling up guard.

I've found that a half-distance deflection is the best course. That is to say deflect the attack when it is halfway to to you. This gives ample time to counter, as well as to regain your center of balance all before your opponent has time to do anything but throw on instinct. And if he throws on instinct you've got the time to deflect the second strike, and because it was an instinct strike chances are his guard is low or down entirely, and he's completely open to a knockout strike. Of course defending leg kicks remains just tanking it with a shield or getting out of the way

Of course this only really works effectively for me, and in the case of my Northern Freestyle Mantis Form kung fu friend who tried it, works wonders on under-trained fighters. And that's 99% of the fighters in my area. We've only got one shitty MT school, one decent Karate school/ J3 school, one shitty Karate school and one MMA gym that pumps out BS bangers like its going out of style.

name goes here 11-05-2009 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjadude (Post 1032967)
Do you guys remember Liddel against Ortiz, when Liddel sent a barrage of punches to an Ortiz who was trying to protect himself, and sent him to the mat?

It is known already that boxing with 16 onces gloves and 4 onces gloves is not the same. Its not so much the attack that is different, but more the defense. Well, big gloves offer defense because they have size and are like cushions. Also, its easier to block a big glove form coming in, because of its size mainly. With 4 onces gloves who don't offer protection, the punches just sneek in the boxing guard easily, and the fist coming in is smaller too...

So why do the MMA guys keep practicing American boxing? I see it all the time, how the boxing defense fails MMA fighters in the cage...

I'm thinking to myself why don't MMA fighters use the chinese boxing approach more. I remember when I was practicing wing-chung, all those blocks and sticky hands techniques... They were effective.

What do you guys think?

Chinese boxing? Vids? Pics?

Ninjadude 11-05-2009 05:00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4qpB-3oFbY
here is one of many examples of chinese boxing sticky hands technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7FM2C6593Y
This one is a good example of chinese style defensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X...eature=related
here is an example of the offensive in wing-chung.

Onganju 11-05-2009 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter (Post 1035697)
I think the biggest issue arrising from the boxing stance is that its designed to be used with the larger gloves. Whereas Martial Arts that were invented before the advent of padded gloves include more versatile deflection and countering guards and less of the curling up guard.

You do realize that before the inception of the Marquois of Queensbury rules, boxing was a bare-knuckle contest? The modern approach to boxing defense encompasses a lot more than covering up, and it's applicable regardless of whether you have gloves or not.

Not to be too critical, but I don't see how how a "boxing stance" would be something that has come into use because modern mufflers were put into place. I don't see how having a good base, being light on your feet, having your hands up and tight to you, and having you chin tucked became required because you put gloves on.

Believe me I don't want to bait an argument, but I don't see how knowledgeable, practicing Martial Artists or MMA fans still cling to the myth that boxing technique and defense is only applicable when wearing "16oz pillows" on your hands. I can only assume that due to their limited exposure to boxing training that they take being able to cover up as the end all be all of defensive technique in boxing, when that just inst the case. Yeah, if you're new to boxing they are going to teach you how to cover up first. But after that there is a largely comprehensive amount of techniques that take a long time to learn and even longer to master. Just look up any videos of Pernell Whitaker, Willie Pep or Floyd Mayweather Jr to see what I mean.

xeberus 11-05-2009 09:07 PM

No dude. That is like saying is sex overrated just because you only use missionary. You have to master doggy, practice reverse cowgirl and it takes to get in sync with the side by side position and it can get frustrating. But master all aspects of sex, you'll never think overrated again and your partner will agree.

Onganju 11-06-2009 01:30 PM

^Well said.

name goes here 11-06-2009 01:48 PM

The chinese boxing looks like it wouldn't work with gloves, because you could grab their gloves. I was really hoping you could show me something a bit more like a real fight...


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