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Old 01-31-2007, 07:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onganju
Actually... The generation of force within an elbow or knee strike is higher than that of a punch or kick. However, the surface area that the force transfers through is much bigger in an elbow or knee. Where a punch would be a whip or spear, the elbow is your club. It's the same reason why a low velocity round being shot out of a gun will pierce flesh and cause internal trauma, but a beabag shot out of a 12-gauge will cause surface trauma and not carry the same amount of "lethalness." The surface area of the fist is smaller than that of the elbow and transfers the force better.

I can see where northcoastmma's coach is coming from. In a full-range stand-up contest, elbows shine in the limited confines of the clinch. Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks.

Now in MMA, because of the clinch and also ground fighting, elbows are probably more effective than punches simply for the fact that you do not need a greater amount of distance to create force on the elbow. So in that regards, the elbow is golden in application.

Now the reason why cuts are so prevalent with elbows is because you are not required to pad your elbows. If your hit an elbow correctly, you would be hitting with the point of the elbow instead of lower on your forearm. In which case, connecting to the orbital area or other bony areas of the face will cause cuts very easily as the skin is pressured between 2 sharp objects causing it to split open. The same thing is possible off of a punch, but is not as likely due to the fact that the glove disperses some of the direct force.
your right on its like comparing a rifle to a shot gun blast but because the elbows arent padded you get more external damage as opposed to penetrating power. Its the same for people like me instead of doing round kicks with my shin I do them with the ball of the foot because the kicks have more penetration. In a mma application you would want this because you could call the fight quicker because of excessive bleeding. They are primarily the short range weapon of choice
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Old 01-31-2007, 07:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmyz
Just because you dont know how to use them doesnt mean that the fist is more powerful. Think about it lodgically if you punch properly the power from your punches comes from back and your feet. If you do an uppercut properly you barely move your hands and all. Hooks are more hips and legs right crosses are back. The force from the punch is exactly the same the difference is the contact surface. One is a pointed edge the other is two knuckles.
To tell you the truth man I have been in the Martial Arts for 18 years and have studied everything from elbow strikes to BJJ, I am by no means an expert but I do know a "little" something about striking and MMA. You have your opinion and I have mine, but my opinion is backed up by:
1) Years and years of training & teaching
2) Physics (can't argue with Science )
3) Research (look at how most MMA fighters KO people out)
it's the "law of averages"
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Old 01-31-2007, 08:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmyz
your right on its like comparing a rifle to a shot gun blast but because the elbows arent padded you get more external damage as opposed to penetrating power. Its the same for people like me instead of doing round kicks with my shin I do them with the ball of the foot because the kicks have more penetration. In a mma application you would want this because you could call the fight quicker because of excessive bleeding. They are primarily the short range weapon of choice
As always people on these forums start to change the question to fit their answer. No one was disputing whether or not elbows were effective or not, the question was that his instructor claimed that the elbow strike was not more effective in knocking people out and in my opinion that is true. The punch or kick is more effective in pure KO effectiveness.
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Old 01-31-2007, 09:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamlena
OK, I see your point but that is not what the origianl question was, the question was not are elbow strikes more effective but instead are elbow strikes more effective in KO's, and it simply cannot be argued that elbows are more effective at KO's than punches or kicks due to physics and body mechanics,if elbows were so powerful at KO's every other MMA fighter would practice elbow strikes relentlessly and would try to clinch each and every time, but they know that there is no KO power like the very end of a full punch or kick. Well that's my opinion anyway.
Actually... The OP asks 3 questions.

1) He asks whether they are effective. I say they are, but I do agree that most knock outs don't come from elbows. I openly state: "Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks."

2) He asks whether they are used just to open cuts. I simply state that good elbow are more likely to open cuts.

3) He asks where they are most effective. I simply state in the clinch and on the ground. I don't think there's any argument against that. I'm not going to tell anyone to open their fights with a step-in or spinning elbow strike.

The other details is just me trying to add relevant information.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onganju
Actually... The OP asks 3 questions.

1) He asks whether they are effective. I say they are, but I do agree that most knock outs don't come from elbows. I openly state: "Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks."

2) He asks whether they are used just to open cuts. I simply state that good elbow are more likely to open cuts.

3) He asks where they are most effective. I simply state in the clinch and on the ground. I don't think there's any argument against that. I'm not going to tell anyone to open their fights with a step-in or spinning elbow strike.

The other details is just me trying to add relevant information.
quote: jamlena:GnP, and opening cuts, I agree with your instructor, it's rare to see knockouts via elbows although it does happen from time to time, but they are more effective in helping set-up other strikes and submissions.
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Onganju, great points and in my first response I agreed with all of them (see above), I was simply stating that strike for strike, elbows just are not in the same class as punches and kicks for pure Knockout effectiveness.
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:51 AM   #16 (permalink)
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have to disagree there....if i get in good and close and land a clean elbow strike under your ear, you're gonna stay down for half an hour and you won't chew for a week....can't land many punches that could do the same damage!
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides69
have to disagree there....if i get in good and close and land a clean elbow strike under your ear, you're gonna stay down for half an hour and you won't chew for a week....can't land many punches that could do the same damage!
True... But you can say the same for a solidly placed punch to the base of the jaw also. Statistically speaking, punches are acredited for more KOs than any other strike. As it is, I don't think you're going to see any recorded finishes to fights from an elbow to the body. However, punches to the body have produced many KOs (some of which are the most painful that I've ever seen).
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Old 03-08-2007, 10:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
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don't use a hammer to cut wood, and don't use a saw to hammer nails......
elbows, punches, kicks, and knees.... all are great for each of their own use. i feel it is all about timing and placement, of your strikes
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Old 03-08-2007, 10:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kishiro
don't use a hammer to cut wood, and don't use a saw to hammer nails......
elbows, punches, kicks, and knees.... all are great for each of their own use. i feel it is all about timing and placement, of your strikes
Good point
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Old 03-15-2007, 12:03 AM   #20 (permalink)
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he's right and wrong, elbows work great at ground KO's take Ken shamrock vs ortiz, he elbowed his face until he was KO'd. there also great cut openers which can also stop a fight. its a 50/50
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