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-   -   argument over elbows (http://www.mmaforum.com/standup-technique/8194-argument-over-elbows.html)

northcoastmma 01-28-2007 10:10 PM

argument over elbows
 
i was talking to my bjj coach who also hasdone some muay thai and he said pretty much outside of muay thai elbows arent that effective at knocking people out. he told me even in muay thai knockouts from an elbow strike are pretty rare. so what do you guys. are elbows effective or do most guys just use them to open cuts. where are they most effective. just looking for opinions.

jamlena 01-29-2007 06:53 PM

GnP, and opening cuts, I agree with your instructor, it's rare to see knockouts via elbows although it does happen from time to time, but they are more effective in helping set-up other strikes and submissions.

pauly_j 01-29-2007 07:18 PM

I can't remember who was fighitng bu the fighter was in a real tight spot, about to get tko'd and he swung a wild elbow and had the other guys nose hanging off. That won the fight for him. Also, see anderson silvas cagerage elbow knockout. They're obviously more limeted than punches, but the elbow is way harder.

DaddyThunda 01-29-2007 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauly_j
I can't remember who was fighitng bu the fighter was in a real tight spot, about to get tko'd and he swung a wild elbow and had the other guys nose hanging off. That won the fight for him.

i think ur talkin bout when Kenny Florian beat Alex Karalexis

mrmyz 01-30-2007 07:53 AM

your instructor is wrong. elbos are more powerfull then punches the problem is most people dont know how to use them effectively. When you use elbo strikes up close you have to maintain the form that you would while throwing punches. Most people dont do that and thats why their elbos suck.

Elbos are a close combat weapon and quite frankly they are under utilized. Imagine this throw your elbows as you would throw a hook uppercut or right cross in the same manner except you retract your hand and only use the elbo. The amount of force is stronger then if you use your arm.

The reason behind that is because you are using the exact same muscles to generate force which is your back and legs but now you are swinging a more compact object around so the strike is more crisp. Also its harder to do damage with your hand because alot of times fighters will dissapate force when the hit doesnt land smoothely because of the wrist with the elbo its one solid blunt object.

EC_Raider_07 01-30-2007 10:28 PM

Maybe elbows are good for Mauy Thai specialists, but most people will not get a KO by elbows.

jamlena 01-30-2007 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmyz
your instructor is wrong. elbos are more powerfull then punches the problem is most people dont know how to use them effectively. When you use elbo strikes up close you have to maintain the form that you would while throwing punches. Most people dont do that and thats why their elbos suck.

Elbos are a close combat weapon and quite frankly they are under utilized. Imagine this throw your elbows as you would throw a hook uppercut or right cross in the same manner except you retract your hand and only use the elbo. The amount of force is stronger then if you use your arm.

The reason behind that is because you are using the exact same muscles to generate force which is your back and legs but now you are swinging a more compact object around so the strike is more crisp. Also its harder to do damage with your hand because alot of times fighters will dissapate force when the hit doesnt land smoothely because of the wrist with the elbo its one solid blunt object.

OK, more powerful than punches???? What school did you go to, anyone who has ever studied any Martial Art knows that Kicks & Punches are the most powerful strikes, elbows can cause serious damage like cutting someone and can "sometimes"knockout people but a kick or punch will KO someone a whole lot faster (ex:CRO COP, LIDDELL)so to say that elbows are more powerful is absolutley absurd. The range is just in a completely different class...plain old physics man :)

Onganju 01-31-2007 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamlena
OK, more powerful than punches???? What school did you go to, anyone who has ever studied any Martial Art knows that Kicks & Punches are the most powerful strikes, elbows can cause serious damage like cutting someone and can "sometimes"knockout people but a kick or punch will KO someone a whole lot faster (ex:CRO COP, LIDDELL)so to say that elbows are more powerful is absolutley absurd. The range is just in a completely different class...plain old physics man :)

Actually... The generation of force within an elbow or knee strike is higher than that of a punch or kick. However, the surface area that the force transfers through is much bigger in an elbow or knee. Where a punch would be a whip or spear, the elbow is your club. It's the same reason why a low velocity round being shot out of a gun will pierce flesh and cause internal trauma, but a beabag shot out of a 12-gauge will cause surface trauma and not carry the same amount of "lethalness." The surface area of the fist is smaller than that of the elbow and transfers the force better.

I can see where northcoastmma's coach is coming from. In a full-range stand-up contest, elbows shine in the limited confines of the clinch. Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks.

Now in MMA, because of the clinch and also ground fighting, elbows are probably more effective than punches simply for the fact that you do not need a greater amount of distance to create force on the elbow. So in that regards, the elbow is golden in application.

Now the reason why cuts are so prevalent with elbows is because you are not required to pad your elbows. If your hit an elbow correctly, you would be hitting with the point of the elbow instead of lower on your forearm. In which case, connecting to the orbital area or other bony areas of the face will cause cuts very easily as the skin is pressured between 2 sharp objects causing it to split open. The same thing is possible off of a punch, but is not as likely due to the fact that the glove disperses some of the direct force.

mrmyz 01-31-2007 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamlena
OK, more powerful than punches???? What school did you go to, anyone who has ever studied any Martial Art knows that Kicks & Punches are the most powerful strikes, elbows can cause serious damage like cutting someone and can "sometimes"knockout people but a kick or punch will KO someone a whole lot faster (ex:CRO COP, LIDDELL)so to say that elbows are more powerful is absolutley absurd. The range is just in a completely different class...plain old physics man :)

Just because you dont know how to use them doesnt mean that the fist is more powerful. Think about it lodgically if you punch properly the power from your punches comes from back and your feet. If you do an uppercut properly you barely move your hands and all. Hooks are more hips and legs right crosses are back. The force from the punch is exactly the same the difference is the contact surface. One is a pointed edge the other is two knuckles.

jamlena 01-31-2007 07:48 PM

[quote=Onganju]Actually...
Now in MMA, because of the clinch and also ground fighting, elbows are probably more effective than punches simply for the fact that you do not need a greater amount of distance to create force on the elbow. So in that regards, the elbow is golden in application.
QUOTE]

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OK, I see your point but that is not what the origianl question was, the question was not are elbow strikes more effective but instead are elbow strikes more effective in KO's, and it simply cannot be argued that elbows are more effective at KO's than punches or kicks due to physics and body mechanics,if elbows were so powerful at KO's every other MMA fighter would practice elbow strikes relentlessly and would try to clinch each and every time, but they know that there is no KO power like the very end of a full punch or kick. Well that's my opinion anyway.


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