Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter
2. Live training is the best. Correct. While throat strikes cannot easily be trained full contact (if You'd like to live) eye gouges can. I once read either an article, or an answer on Yahoo, can't remember which. About training eye gouges full contact. It was done with simple swimming goggles, and finger paint. While it's impossible to perform groin strikes and throat strikes on a live person, there are human surrogates that replecate the anatomy rather well. They work along the same context as a heavy bag. Unless you think those don't develop applicable technique?
3. It is possible to win in 8/10 situations without the use of what you coin "dirty" techniques (There's no such thing as dirty techniques outside the gym/cage. Thinking there are is base foolishness). However, in those 2/10situations. Or for a person of inferior bulk/strength, these techniques which you coin as "dirty tactics" are in fact the great equalizer. As said before, the sickest overhand in the land doesn't matter if your groin's been popped, or your throat's been closed. It doesn't matter how much punching power you have if you're on wobbly legs, or can't breath.
First off, I'd like to make something clear. I was originally going to put this in my post yesterday, but I got a phone call so I had to cut it short. I am not trying to disrespect TMA in general. My disparaging comment was just at TMA, which 'allegedly' hinges on dirty tactics that can't be practiced live.
*I say dirty, not because I don't condone using these things in a self defense situation, but because that's what those techniques would usually be called. If you say 'dirty fighting,' people will think eye-gouging, groin shots, etc. I'm using it as a description -- no judgement attached.
As for the goggles and eye-gouges, I've suggested that on Yahoo answers before(though it wasn't me who mentioned paint). That's a GREAT alternative to throwing pretend eye-strikes in the air, but it's still not the real thing. I've dissected an eye before and while it's far from indestructible, eyeballs aren't bubble-wrap. They don't pop from the slightest pressure, and it's not as easy as some people think to disabilitate an eye.
As for the heavy bag analogy, sure, it's kind of like that. It's a huge step above practicing it in the air, but I'm sure you've seen tons of guys who look amazing on the heavy bag but can't land a thing in sparring.
I don't have faith in a technique that I haven't successfully used on a resisting opponent hundreds of times. I also don't have faith until I"ve used the technique to (what's at least close to) it's full effect. I trust my body hook because I've folded people with it many times. I don't trust my diving punch (from standing while passing the guard) because I've never hit any one hard with it, so I don't have a true feel for REALLY using the move.
I'll use it in a fight if I get the opportunity, sure, but I have no illusions that it will work perfectly for me or just as I want it to. But I'd have more faith in that than you should have in an eye-gouge, since I've seen that technique KO tons of people at local shows or on TV. Unless you go around poking people's eyes out (or watching people do that), it's kind of weird for you to have such faith in a theoretical move.
(I believe in an eye-gouge's effectiveness too, on a theoretical level, but until I KNOW for sure how it works, it will never be held in the same esteem as a hook or round kick.)
As for throat strikes -- I know from personal experience that they're VASTLY overrated. It's not nearly as easy to incapacitate someone as you'd think. Two situations that I remember best...
I was sparring hard with a really good kicker in my gym. He went for my head and, stupidly, my chin was up. His shin hit my throat flush. It took some wind out of me, but I finished the round without a problem and I certainly wasn't dead.
But okay, he had shin pads on, so maybe that dampened the blow. Here's a better one:
When I was younger and dumber, I used to spar with my friends without any equipment in public parks. I was going against a guy with a grappling background, while I had none. He shot in (poorly, I might add) and I was able to push his head down and sort of sprawl. He was still driving, so I unleashed the HARDEST knees that I could. A couple of them landed to his windpipe. Guess what happened?
He took me down, submitted me, then spent the next 5 minutes coughing up blood.
(And I'm not even going to get started on how often groin shots are ignored).
There is no magic button.
Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter
As said before, the sickest overhand in the land doesn't matter if your groin's been popped, or your throat's been closed. It doesn't matter how much punching power you have if you're on wobbly legs, or can't breath
See this is actually the part that I have a problem with, and what originally prompted my response.
Here, I feel like you are insinuating that these moves can overcome solid technique. Or even worse, I feel like you were insinuating that a pro fighter could be overcome with groin kicks or throat punches.
Your statement assumes that the groin-kicker/throat-striker lands first. Against someone who has 'the sickest overhand in the land,' it's REDICUlOUS to think that would happen. Having the best punch doesn't just mean power -- it means accuracy, speed, timing, and setups. Dirty techniques <<<<<<<<<<< power, precision, speed, and timing. They're not a magic button.
Although, again, I have nothing against using them in the streets and I think that they could work just fine against an unskilled opponent. However, against a skilled opponent, you'll need skill to hang.