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View Poll Results: Which is the most effective form of Striking?

Muay Thai/Kickboxing 16 61.54%
Krav Maga 0 0%
Boxing 5 19.23%
Wing Chun 0 0%
Kung Fu 1 3.85%
Jeet Kune Do 0 0%
Capoeira 0 0%
Karate 0 0%
Taekwondo 0 0%
Other - please state in your post. 4 15.38%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-20-2010, 11:39 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
But the second part is bull.

It takes a fraction of the force to collapse the windpipe vs KOing someone. There are no bones to disperse the energy, there's no meat to absorb the impact. Strike just above the Cricoid Cartillage and you are striking directly into the windpipe. With a flush hook. There's no guarantee of a KO. With a strike to the windpipe. A 60 year old woman could cut off oxygen flow, even temporarily, and activate the gag reflex.

I can again agree that they both have the same probability of landing. However, the throat strike is almost guaranteed to be DAMAGING. Where as a hook punch that lands flush has the potential to KO, but if it doesn't hit with that kind of power, it'll just hurt. And that's the big difference in a street fight (under the conditions where running is not an option). Damage vs Pain.
really? i thought you were going to try and refute the first.

well the force required to KO someone is far more readily available than the precision to hit an area as small and easily protected as the throat.

attacking the throat against someone with no formal training is "okay" same as throwing a punch etc if you cant throw a good punch, focus attacking only the throat against someone with formal training is a great way of not remembering the lesson they teach you.

maybe if you were 100lbs, can fight for crap, have no force behind your strikes and had no other option then sure go for the throat. or if its just given to you, then sure why not. but thats really it lol :P

edit: and the same probability of landing? id say id land 7 hooks+ to every throat strike landed. no way is it close in easy to land, hooks would be there all day, the throat would not unless in a situation where it wouldnt matter hook or throat attack.


edit: well i have to head out for a bit. but ill be back later, ill leave with this:

while we're talking about such techniques, why instead of fighting dont we just drop to our knees and pray that the other guy just gives up or something xD

that or we can do some sick neck snaps



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Old 12-20-2010, 11:58 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
really? i thought you were going to try and refute the first.

well the force required to KO someone is far more readily available than the precision to hit an area as small and easily protected as the throat.

attacking the throat against someone with no formal training is "okay" same as throwing a punch etc if you cant throw a good punch, focus attacking only the throat against someone with formal training is a great way of not remembering the lesson they teach you.

maybe if you were 100lbs, can fight for crap, have no force behind your strikes and had no other option then sure go for the throat. or if its just given to you, then sure why not. but thats really it lol :P

edit: and the same probability of landing? id say id land 7 hooks+ to every throat strike landed. no way is it close in easy to land, hooks would be there all day, the throat would not unless in a situation where it wouldnt matter hook or throat attack.
When you're right, you're right. Assuming they're in a back stance, its the same physiological movement to throw a groin kick, or a leg kick. But if they're "straight squared up homie!" its a front slap kick.

The thing about a throat strike that I have always liked is that it works under the same principle as an uppercut, in that you come from underneath, but also strike straight to the point, aggressively. In that way it can slide underneath a side head block. Or even fully covered, depending on elbow positioning. In that way, even a trained opponent, depending on skill.

I assumed we were refering to self-defense. Most people aren't trained fighters brudda. A basic technique like a jab or cross/overhand or rear hook, along with a throat strike is easy to learn for a noob, and works in a self-defense situation.

I wasn't refering to hooks in general. If you don't want to end the fight instantly and run like hell. You can go ahead and throw hooks all day. However, in a street fight the goal is to do enough damage quickly, with the goal of running away and NOT being stabbed, shot, or robbed, right?

Edit: Neck snaps only work if your name is Steven Seagal. Then they're epicly effective!
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
2. Live training is the best. Correct. While throat strikes cannot easily be trained full contact (if You'd like to live) eye gouges can. I once read either an article, or an answer on Yahoo, can't remember which. About training eye gouges full contact. It was done with simple swimming goggles, and finger paint. While it's impossible to perform groin strikes and throat strikes on a live person, there are human surrogates that replecate the anatomy rather well. They work along the same context as a heavy bag. Unless you think those don't develop applicable technique?

3. It is possible to win in 8/10 situations without the use of what you coin "dirty" techniques (There's no such thing as dirty techniques outside the gym/cage. Thinking there are is base foolishness). However, in those 2/10situations. Or for a person of inferior bulk/strength, these techniques which you coin as "dirty tactics" are in fact the great equalizer. As said before, the sickest overhand in the land doesn't matter if your groin's been popped, or your throat's been closed. It doesn't matter how much punching power you have if you're on wobbly legs, or can't breath.
First off, I'd like to make something clear. I was originally going to put this in my post yesterday, but I got a phone call so I had to cut it short. I am not trying to disrespect TMA in general. My disparaging comment was just at TMA, which 'allegedly' hinges on dirty tactics that can't be practiced live.

*I say dirty, not because I don't condone using these things in a self defense situation, but because that's what those techniques would usually be called. If you say 'dirty fighting,' people will think eye-gouging, groin shots, etc. I'm using it as a description -- no judgement attached.

As for the goggles and eye-gouges, I've suggested that on Yahoo answers before(though it wasn't me who mentioned paint). That's a GREAT alternative to throwing pretend eye-strikes in the air, but it's still not the real thing. I've dissected an eye before and while it's far from indestructible, eyeballs aren't bubble-wrap. They don't pop from the slightest pressure, and it's not as easy as some people think to disabilitate an eye.

As for the heavy bag analogy, sure, it's kind of like that. It's a huge step above practicing it in the air, but I'm sure you've seen tons of guys who look amazing on the heavy bag but can't land a thing in sparring.

I don't have faith in a technique that I haven't successfully used on a resisting opponent hundreds of times. I also don't have faith until I"ve used the technique to (what's at least close to) it's full effect. I trust my body hook because I've folded people with it many times. I don't trust my diving punch (from standing while passing the guard) because I've never hit any one hard with it, so I don't have a true feel for REALLY using the move.

I'll use it in a fight if I get the opportunity, sure, but I have no illusions that it will work perfectly for me or just as I want it to. But I'd have more faith in that than you should have in an eye-gouge, since I've seen that technique KO tons of people at local shows or on TV. Unless you go around poking people's eyes out (or watching people do that), it's kind of weird for you to have such faith in a theoretical move.

(I believe in an eye-gouge's effectiveness too, on a theoretical level, but until I KNOW for sure how it works, it will never be held in the same esteem as a hook or round kick.)

As for throat strikes -- I know from personal experience that they're VASTLY overrated. It's not nearly as easy to incapacitate someone as you'd think. Two situations that I remember best...

I was sparring hard with a really good kicker in my gym. He went for my head and, stupidly, my chin was up. His shin hit my throat flush. It took some wind out of me, but I finished the round without a problem and I certainly wasn't dead.

But okay, he had shin pads on, so maybe that dampened the blow. Here's a better one:

When I was younger and dumber, I used to spar with my friends without any equipment in public parks. I was going against a guy with a grappling background, while I had none. He shot in (poorly, I might add) and I was able to push his head down and sort of sprawl. He was still driving, so I unleashed the HARDEST knees that I could. A couple of them landed to his windpipe. Guess what happened?

He took me down, submitted me, then spent the next 5 minutes coughing up blood.

(And I'm not even going to get started on how often groin shots are ignored).

There is no magic button.

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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
As said before, the sickest overhand in the land doesn't matter if your groin's been popped, or your throat's been closed. It doesn't matter how much punching power you have if you're on wobbly legs, or can't breath
See this is actually the part that I have a problem with, and what originally prompted my response.

Here, I feel like you are insinuating that these moves can overcome solid technique. Or even worse, I feel like you were insinuating that a pro fighter could be overcome with groin kicks or throat punches.

Your statement assumes that the groin-kicker/throat-striker lands first. Against someone who has 'the sickest overhand in the land,' it's REDICUlOUS to think that would happen. Having the best punch doesn't just mean power -- it means accuracy, speed, timing, and setups. Dirty techniques <<<<<<<<<<< power, precision, speed, and timing. They're not a magic button.

Although, again, I have nothing against using them in the streets and I think that they could work just fine against an unskilled opponent. However, against a skilled opponent, you'll need skill to hang.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
See this is actually the part that I have a problem with, and what originally prompted my response.

Here, I feel like you are insinuating that these moves can overcome solid technique. Or even worse, I feel like you were insinuating that a pro fighter could be overcome with groin kicks or throat punches.

Your statement assumes that the groin-kicker/throat-striker lands first. Against someone who has 'the sickest overhand in the land,' it's REDICUlOUS to think that would happen. Having the best punch doesn't just mean power -- it means accuracy, speed, timing, and setups. Dirty techniques <<<<<<<<<<< power, precision, speed, and timing. They're not a magic button.

Although, again, I have nothing against using them in the streets and I think that they could work just fine against an unskilled opponent. However, against a skilled opponent, you'll need skill to hang.
I can completely understand and agree with some of the first part. But much of our disagreement there is a matter of differences of opinion or stylistic things, however you want to word it. Which is fine. That's the best thing about Martial Arts in general (traditional, self-defense or sport) its all unique to the user.

The part I quoted is where I have to address our differences. I wasn't trying at all to suggest the overhand user was in some way inferior to a single technique. However I feel like you are implying that the user of the throat strike is inferior. Who's to say any of them are inferior/superior fighters, simply stating that one technique, which I consider the perfect technique to counter with a throat strike which when performed properly is a rising technique, like an uppercut, is inferior to another.

The point I was trying to make was that in a street fight, whoever's technique is better matters less that who does more demoralizing and physically limiting damage, granted better technique is the gateway to doing more damage. In this case, the user of the throat strike, when done properly (a proper throat strike is an open hand technique, not a closed fist technique) it completely blocks of air flow, but more importantly disrupts the epiglottis, which activates the gag reflex causing partial, or full uncontrolled vomiting.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
I can completely understand and agree with some of the first part. But much of our disagreement there is a matter of differences of opinion or stylistic things, however you want to word it. Which is fine. That's the best thing about Martial Arts in general (traditional, self-defense or sport) its all unique to the user.

The part I quoted is where I have to address our differences. I wasn't trying at all to suggest the overhand user was in some way inferior to a single technique. However I feel like you are implying that the user of the throat strike is inferior. Who's to say any of them are inferior/superior fighters, simply stating that one technique, which I consider the perfect technique to counter with a throat strike which when performed properly is a rising technique, like an uppercut, is inferior to another.

The point I was trying to make was that in a street fight, whoever's technique is better matters less that who does more demoralizing and physically limiting damage, granted better technique is the gateway to doing more damage. In this case, the user of the throat strike, when done properly (a proper throat strike is an open hand technique, not a closed fist technique) it completely blocks of air flow, but more importantly disrupts the epiglottis, which activates the gag reflex causing partial, or full uncontrolled vomiting.
I certainly am assuming that the throat-striker is inferior in this situation. Why? Because you said this dude has 'the baddest overhand in the land.' For his technique to be so much more developed than everyone elses, he'd pretty much have to be a high level competitor.

Though you can definitely prepare for both, self defense and combat sports are different paths. Someone who's really good at one, doesn't tend to be as good at the other. Putting in the work into each field will yield different results. A high level combat sportsman will be an EXCELLENT fighter, and will be able to overcome most people in the world in a 1-on-1 fight. This includes the high level self defense practitioner. However, the self defense guy could survive many situations that the combat sportsman would get killed in. Combat sports gets you good at fighting, self defense arts get you good at surviving bad situations.

So, unless I misread your meaning, I'm assuming that the guy with the overhand right is a high level competitor. The throat-striker is almost certainly not as good a FIGHTER (though he may be equipped to handle many more self defense scenarios).

That's my thought process on this...

Plus, when you were saying things like 'a 60 year old lady could collapse someone's throat with a strike,' it seems like you're saying that dirty moves can overcome superior skill (when you consider 'the baddest overhand in the land' example in conjunction with this).
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:17 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
I certainly am assuming that the throat-striker is inferior in this situation. Why? Because you said this dude has 'the baddest overhand in the land.' For his technique to be so much more developed than everyone elses, he'd pretty much have to be a high level competitor.

Though you can definitely prepare for both, self defense and combat sports are different paths. Someone who's really good at one, doesn't tend to be as good at the other. Putting in the work into each field will yield different results. A high level combat sportsman will be an EXCELLENT fighter, and will be able to overcome most people in the world in a 1-on-1 fight. This includes the high level self defense practitioner. However, the self defense guy could survive many situations that the combat sportsman would get killed in. Combat sports gets you good at fighting, self defense arts get you good at surviving bad situations.

So, unless I misread your meaning, I'm assuming that the guy with the overhand right is a high level competitor. The throat-striker is almost certainly not as good a FIGHTER (though he may be equipped to handle many more self defense scenarios).

That's my thought process on this...

Plus, when you were saying things like 'a 60 year old lady could collapse someone's throat with a strike,' it seems like you're saying that dirty moves can overcome superior skill (when you consider 'the baddest overhand in the land' example in conjunction with this).
I can see where you're coming from with competitior vs survivalist. But I think that in this situation, one where there are no rules, a survival situation, the survivalist has the advantage.

Which was my meaning with the original post on page 1. In the cage, a pure Kung Fu fighter, Karateka, Judoka, anyone not well rounded would get smacked around like a redheaded stepchild, almost no question. However in a street situation, I stand by my belief that a competition fighter, conditioned for competition (rules, limiting techniques, etc), will not be as prepared for a survival situation (now my favorite description for a no-escape situation!) in the manner a self-defense fighter would be.

In that way, I suspect a fighter who'd totally conditioned himself to strike at vital points, to damage his opponent's body to break his will so as not to die, would be able to apply the proper counter to any competition fighter's overhand.

The term regarding the elderly woman was in regard to the resiliancy of the human biology against this technique when properly performed. I have no belief that grammy can kill an MMA fighter.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
I can see where you're coming from with competitior vs survivalist. But I think that in this situation, one where there are no rules, a survival situation, the survivalist has the advantage.

Which was my meaning with the original post on page 1. In the cage, a pure Kung Fu fighter, Karateka, Judoka, anyone not well rounded would get smacked around like a redheaded stepchild, almost no question. However in a street situation, I stand by my belief that a competition fighter, conditioned for competition (rules, limiting techniques, etc), will not be as prepared for a survival situation (now my favorite description for a no-escape situation!) in the manner a self-defense fighter would be.

In that way, I suspect a fighter who'd totally conditioned himself to strike at vital points, to damage his opponent's body to break his will so as not to die, would be able to apply the proper counter to any competition fighter's overhand.

The term regarding the elderly woman was in regard to the resiliancy of the human biology against this technique when properly performed. I have no belief that grammy can kill an MMA fighter.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I just don't understand why you feel like it's so different. As you said, skill is a gateway to dealing damage. If a self-defense artist couldn't land any meaningful non-dirty moves in a competition environment, why would he suddenly be able to land shots of a different variety?

If you can't jab Anderson Silva, how will you ever eye-gouge him?

I assume that you train, so you must have an instructor that you hold in high esteem (else you wouldn't be training under him). If he were to go against someone who he could 'beat like a redheaded stepchild (LOL @ gingers!) in sparring, do you think that your instructor would lose to that same person in a street fight if that guy could eye-gouge/throat strike/etc and your instructor couldn't? How would that fight go?
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:14 PM   #28 (permalink)
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As for the goggles and eye-gouges, I've suggested that on Yahoo answers before(though it wasn't me who mentioned paint). That's a GREAT alternative to throwing pretend eye-strikes in the air, but it's still not the real thing. I've dissected an eye before and while it's far from indestructible, eyeballs aren't bubble-wrap. They don't pop from the slightest pressure, and it's not as easy as some people think to disabilitate an eye.
Just a little comment on that one. Yes, eyes are pretty durable due to their spherical nature, but have you ever accidentally poked yourself in the eye¿ Usually tears instantly start to shoot, vision gets obscured and you will squint your eyes. And that's what the good old poke-in-the-eye is for. It's not the ultimate finishing technique, but a solid set up for following techniques.

You see that also in MMA fights when someone accidentally gets a finger in his eye. Even though the fighters are fully adrenalised, they usually have to stop the fight for several seconds.

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I can see where you're coming from with competitior vs survivalist. But I think that in this situation, one where there are no rules, a survival situation, the survivalist has the advantage.

Which was my meaning with the original post on page 1. In the cage, a pure Kung Fu fighter, Karateka, Judoka, anyone not well rounded would get smacked around like a redheaded stepchild, almost no question. However in a street situation, I stand by my belief that a competition fighter, conditioned for competition (rules, limiting techniques, etc), will not be as prepared for a survival situation (now my favorite description for a no-escape situation!) in the manner a self-defense fighter would be.

In that way, I suspect a fighter who'd totally conditioned himself to strike at vital points, to damage his opponent's body to break his will so as not to die, would be able to apply the proper counter to any competition fighter's overhand.

The term regarding the elderly woman was in regard to the resiliancy of the human biology against this technique when properly performed. I have no belief that grammy can kill an MMA fighter.
The problem you two have in your debate is your one-dimensional comparison of an MMA fight and a self defense situation. They are not that easily compared, because while MMA fights always have (more or less) the same frameset (two fighters, same weightclass, ring/octagon, time limit, same rules), self defense situations on the other hand may differ strongly from each other (1 up to n opponents, no rules, possible weapons, often unknown area, etc.). Pure hand to hand combat in self defense training is NOT to keep it hand to hand, but to bridge the time you need to either find the gap to run away and/or to find an "equalizer" (weapon). It's not so much the physical abilities that give the "survivalist" an advantage in a self defense situation, but his mindset and knowledge on how to use the environment.

Last edited by Voiceless : 12-20-2010 at 07:11 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Just a little comment on that one. Yes, eyes are pretty durable due to their spherical nature, but have you ever accidentally poked yourself in the eye¿ Usually tears instantly start to shoot, vision gets obscured and you will squint your eyes. And that's what the good old poke-in-the-eye is for. It's not the ultimate finishing technique, but a solid set up for following techniques.

You see that also in MMA fights when someone accidentally gets a finger in his eye. Even though the fighters are fully adrenalised, they usually have to stop the fight for several seconds.
They're just being drama queens. When you have the option to take a second to rest, why not take it? When you don't have the option, you just man-up and deal with it. While self defense isn't my main goal, I keep it in mind during my training and when I get fouled it's very rare that I won't finish the round before complaining about it. In a scenario where my adrenaline is pumping even harder, I doubt I'll even notice. And I don't think I'm different from most other fighters in that regard.

On a sidenote, how many times have you read about guys getting hit in the nuts or stabbed and not even noticing until after the altercation was long over? And I'm talking about normal people here, not trained fighters.

I don't doubt that an eye poke could pay dividends as a distraction, but I maintain my stance that it's not a magic button.



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The problem you two have in your debate is your one-dimensional comparison of an MMA fight and a self defense situation. They are not that easily compared, because while MMA fights always have (more or less) the same frameset (two fighters, same weightclass, ring/octagon, time limit, same rules), self defense situations on the other hand may differ strongly from each other (1 up to n opponents, no rules, possible weapons, often unknown area, etc.). Pure hand to hand combat in self defense training is NOT to keep it hand to hand, but to bridge the time you need to either find the gap to run away and/or to find an "equalizer" (weapon). It's not so much the physical abilities that give the "survivalist" an advantage in a self defense situation, but his mindest and knowledge on how to use the environment.
That's actually what I was trying to get at, though, I didn't do a very good job expressing this thought. Again, I strongly believe that the competitor will always be the better FIGHTER, but the survivalist is the better, well, survivor.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:58 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
They're just being drama queens. When you have the option to take a second to rest, why not take it? When you don't have the option, you just man-up and deal with it. While self defense isn't my main goal, I keep it in mind during my training and when I get fouled it's very rare that I won't finish the round before complaining about it. In a scenario where my adrenaline is pumping even harder, I doubt I'll even notice. And I don't think I'm different from most other fighters in that regard.
They're not just drama queens (I don't doubt that there are some who exaggerate to get that little extra rest). You see it in the cases when the referee doesn't stop that they are handicapped for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
On a sidenote, how many times have you read about guys getting hit in the nuts or stabbed and not even noticing until after the altercation was long over? And I'm talking about normal people here, not trained fighters.
I actually know that a groin shot which didn't properly land may start to hurt only after the adrenaline goes down after a situation on the street. And a good friend's acquaintance told that he thought only to have been punched in the torso when he woke up from coma after having got stabbed. Another one I know of just felt it getting warm around the area of his kidneys (due to his blood), before passing out.

BUT groin shots and knife stabs are a different thing than eye pokes. With the eye it's not necessarily so much about pain, it's more about uncontrollable reaction. You just can't control the tears to start to run and thereby obscuring your vision and you barely can't control your eyes from squinting, because that's just an automatic reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
I don't doubt that an eye poke could pay dividends as a distraction, but I maintain my stance that it's not a magic button.
Yes. As I've written it's not the ultimate finishing technique (magic button), but a solid set up (due to distraction) for following techniques. So we are more or less on the same track here.
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