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Old 01-04-2012, 11:55 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Your statement is so far away from reality, I wonder what kind of made up experience you even have, if any. Everyone knows how to throw a punch? Please watch these and all other Kimbo Slice street fight videos and repeat your statement:



And these are guys that actually have probably fought a few times. The average guy DOES NOT know how to punch, they know how to WINDMILL, which is absolute garbage against even the most basic boxer, which is what Kimbo is.
Kimbo Slice is physically stronger (which I've written plays a significant role) and far more aggressive than his opponents. And his videos are precisely this: HIS videos. It's not some random streetfight stuff, it's "the Kimbo Slice beats people up"-show. It was his concept, his camera team, his show - so of course he wins his fights against those blobs he chose as opponents. Not so against Sean Gannon, who as a trained MMAist should have picked apart the "basic" boxing of Slice, but it took him a 10min brawl and a Slice collapsing from exhaustion to win the fight.

I've never said everyone knows how to execute a perfect jab or other decent technical striking, but everyone knows how to throw a haymaker and with enough mass and some luck that's enough of a punch if it lands. I've also never said, that these assets will always or even mostly win, I only said that this makes up the luck factor. That's why untechnical people like Bob Sapp sometimes have success and win against highly decorated strikers like Ernesto Hoost.

This luck factor is also why we see from time to time a rather mediocre striker get a lucky punch and by chance ko their supposedly better striking opponent. The higher the weight and consecutively the higher the power the more often we see that. Whereas we really rarely see a mediocre grappler outgrapple and submit a superior grappler (who isn't dazed or something like that)

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
On the contrary, everyone knows how to grapple to some extent by instinct. Take a look at any schoolyard bully fight and see what happens ... the first instinct is to bullrush and mount. Leverage will not help you as much when your opponent is much bigger than you, ever tried to grapple with a well built 300 lb guy? Unless you get a trip really fast, the guy will inevitably bullrush you and your technique in 2 secs and pound you into the pavement, technique or no technique. Even if you do trip him, good luck holding down a guy with much size differential. And Royce Gracie type stuff from the bottom won't help as much when the can gouge, claw and fishhook you.
No, I've not yet grappled a well built 300lb guy. Around 240ish would be the max concerning somewhat sportive/athletic guys, everyone above was rather overweight. Of course, also leverage has its limits, but in over 25ys of MA practice (well you could subtract the first couple of years when I was still a kid and didn't know that much about grappling myself) I've never, not once, been outgrappled let alone submitted by a newbie without grappling experience regardless of their size. In contrast in striking, even if I'm usually out(kick)box any newbie pretty easily, they eventually touch me from time to time and if they are physically stronger, that can hurt me. If they are lucky, they get their shot early in the encounter and that's the luck factor I've talked about.

Of course, striking training will place you in a favorite position above a non trained opponent. That's what training is for. But a "lucky punch" is very much more likely than a "lucky submission".

And everyone knows how to grapple instinctively to some extent¿ Well, everyone may be able to try to grab his opponent and push him around, but that's not "knowing how to use leverage" as I wrote it. If you put a beginner in a boxing class and tell him to box, he will throw punches, even if they are technically not good. But if you put a beginner in a grappling class and tell him to grapple, he most certainly won't end up in an arm bar or heel hook attempt, but not unlikely just say that he doesn't know what to do at all.

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
A good boxer/MT striker however will have the biggest untrained thug turtling up within 3 hard punches, when the thug realizes his slow windmill punches aren't even going to faze the boxer while he puts knots on their head.

Every Kimbo slice fight reinforces this simple basic truth, all kimbo has is the basics of boxing and his opponents all look like they're going to piss right after they get hit with the very first punch. They expect a weak windmill, when they feel the power of a real punch, they practically shit themselves.
Come on. On the one hand you have a quite athletic Kimbo Slice beating up some obese blobs for the striking and on the other hand you put an imaginary well built 300lbs hulk in front me for the grappling¿ That's a bit of a miscomparison, isn't it¿

And also, I don't know what the thugs look like where you live, maybe there is a difference to those were I live, so our experience may very well be different. Here, street thugs usually don't throw slow windmill punches. We do have quite some obese people here, but they are usually not very street thuggish. Those that cause problems in the street and would start a fight are rather agile here.

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
TBH You sound like a typical TMA guy that has never been in a real fight and is all opinion.
You're wrong on that, but that's ok. I'm not going to get personal and discredit any of your experience (which you haven't yet announced) like you did in return, but keep it civil.

Last edited by Voiceless : 01-04-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:46 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
Kimbo Slice is physically stronger (which I've written plays a significant role) and far more aggressive than his opponents. And his videos are precisely this: HIS videos. It's not some random streetfight stuff, it's "the Kimbo Slice beats people up"-show. It was his concept, his camera team, his show - so of course he wins his fights against those blobs he chose as opponents. Not so against Sean Gannon, who as a trained MMAist should have picked apart the "basic" boxing of Slice, but it took him a 10min brawl and a Slice collapsing from exhaustion to win the fight.

I've never said everyone knows how to execute a perfect jab or other decent technical striking, but everyone knows how to throw a haymaker and with enough mass and some luck that's enough of a punch if it lands. I've also never said, that these assets will always or even mostly win, I only said that this makes up the luck factor. That's why untechnical people like Bob Sapp sometimes have success and win against highly decorated strikers like Ernesto Hoost.

This luck factor is also why we see from time to time a rather mediocre striker get a lucky punch and by chance ko their supposedly better striking opponent. The higher the weight and consecutively the higher the power the more often we see that. Whereas we really rarely see a mediocre grappler outgrapple and submit a superior grappler (who isn't dazed or something like that)



No, I've not yet grappled a well built 300lb guy. Around 240ish would be the max concerning somewhat sportive/athletic guys, everyone above was rather overweight. Of course, also leverage has its limits, but in over 25ys of MA practice (well you could subtract the first couple of years when I was still a kid and didn't know that much about grappling myself) I've never, not once, been outgrappled let alone submitted by a newbie without grappling experience regardless of their size. In contrast in striking, even if I'm usually out(kick)box any newbie pretty easily, they eventually touch me from time to time and if they are physically stronger, that can hurt me. If they are lucky, they get their shot early in the encounter and that's the luck factor I've talked about.

Of course, striking training will place you in a favorite position above a non trained opponent. That's what training is for. But a "lucky punch" is very much more likely than a "lucky submission".

And everyone knows how to grapple instinctively to some extent¿ Well, everyone may be able to try to grab his opponent and push him around, but that's not "knowing how to use leverage" as I wrote it. If you put a beginner in a boxing class and tell him to box, he will throw punches, even if they are technically not good. But if you put a beginner in a grappling class and tell him to grapple, he most certainly won't end up in an arm bar or heel hook attempt, but not unlikely just say that he doesn't know what to do at all.



Come on. On the one hand you have a quite athletic Kimbo Slice beating up some obese blobs for the striking and on the other hand you put an imaginary well built 300lbs hulk in front me for the grappling¿ That's a bit of a miscomparison, isn't it¿

And also, I don't know what the thugs look like where you live, maybe there is a difference to those were I live, so our experience may very well be different. Here, street thugs usually don't throw slow windmill punches. We do have quite some obese people here, but they are usually not very street thuggish. Those that cause problems in the street and would start a fight are rather agile here.



You're wrong on that, but that's ok. I'm not going to get personal and discredit any of your experience (which you haven't yet announced) like you did in return, but keep it civil.
Ok you got something against the blobs, here's a nice ripped athletic guy for you, right at your 240 lbs



Clearly, he was born with punching technique. Look at him go! Pure instinct I tell ya.

The Gannon fight also proves my point. A mediocre MMA fighter still beat Kimbo, and he would've done it a lot sooner had it been a full fight instead of boxing only. We all know what happened when Kimbo actually started fighting real MMA fighters, other than ones over 60.

And to compare rolling in Judo or grappling to a full fight has answered my question as to your experience. Even full sparring would be more realistic, but pure rolling without strikes is obviously skewed in the grapplers favor. Of course they're not going to submit you! They don't know how! In real life they don't need to, they just need to take you down and beat/gouge you up. You don't want to grapple with a bigger guy in a streetfight, far too risky unless you get his back somehow.

I'm don't want to discredit you, but the fact remains your opinions are completely out of sync with reality as shown by the video and any casual observance of a streetfight. If you're getting outboxed by noobs, I wonder what training in that area you really have, because at our camp the noobs ALWAYS get their ass handed to them by the guys who know what they're doing, size or not. I'm guessing you're renaming your Karate/TKD sparring to Kickboxing to suit the discussion. What exactly have you trained?

As for myself, I've trained MT and full contact MMA for over 5 years and had the misfortune/stupidity to have to use it in a streetfight back when I was rasher and younger. As I see it, wasn't really my fault, but still could have avoided. As stupid as it was, it did work out quite nicely. It was dumb though .. didn't know the guy, could've gotten stabbed/shot/put in the hospital as easily as any other outcome.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:36 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Ok, I don't know if it's worth that the discussion goes on, because you completely twist my words or put words in my mouth I didn't say so many times.

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Ok you got something against the blobs, here's a nice ripped athletic guy for you, right at your 240 lbs



Clearly, he was born with punching technique. Look at him go! Pure instinct I tell ya.
Either you haven't read at all what I've written or you're trolling. Here you go again: "I've never said everyone knows how to execute a perfect jab or other decent technical striking, but everyone knows how to throw a haymaker and with enough mass and some luck that's enough of a punch if it lands. I've also never said, that these assets will always or even mostly win, I only said that this makes up the luck factor. That's why untechnical people like Bob Sapp sometimes have success and win against highly decorated strikers like Ernesto Hoost."

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
The Gannon fight also proves my point. A mediocre MMA fighter still beat Kimbo, and he would've done it a lot sooner had it been a full fight instead of boxing only. We all know what happened when Kimbo actually started fighting real MMA fighters, other than ones over 60.
No, the Gannon fight doesn't prove your point at all. The Gannon fight shows that even if you train MMA, you don't dismantle an aggressive powerful street thug that easily strikingwise (unless you're a UFC caliber fighter and maybe you think you are one of those). It took Gannon 10 minutes to win. He didn't knock him out clean with his superior striking technique. He won, because Slice was so exhausted that he couldn't stand on his feet anymore.

And yes, I'm with you, Gannon would have probably won faster in a full fight. But why is that¿ Because of the grappling which Slice wouldn't be able to deal with. That rather proves my point.

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
And to compare rolling in Judo or grappling to a full fight has answered my question as to your experience.
No, you're just twisting words around again. It was YOU who asked me, whether I grappled with guys that size. So don't act as you were surprised when I answer you exactly this grappling question.

Quote:
Even full sparring would be more realistic, but pure rolling without strikes is obviously skewed in the grapplers favor. Of course they're not going to submit you! They don't know how! In real life they don't need to, they just need to take you down and beat/gouge you up. You don't want to grapple with a bigger guy in a streetfight, far too risky unless you get his back somehow.
Of course, striking involved it gets harder. Wow, what news!

Quote:
I'm don't want to discredit you, but the fact remains your opinions are completely out of sync with reality as shown by the video and any casual observance of a streetfight. If you're getting outboxed by noobs, I wonder what training in that area you really have, because at our camp the noobs ALWAYS get their ass handed to them by the guys who know what they're doing, size or not. I'm guessing you're renaming your Karate/TKD sparring to Kickboxing to suit the discussion. What exactly have you trained?
I haven't had you on the troll radar in this forum so far, but obviously you are one. You are twisting my words, it's not funny anymore. Either you're doing it really on purpose or you're lacking reading capabilities. What's so hard to understand in this phrase I wrote: "In contrast in striking, even if I'm usually out(kick)box any newbie pretty easily, they eventually touch me from time to time". If you have that much trouble in the understanding, the semantics of that phrase are the following: It says, the noobs DO get their asses handed, but I admit that I'm not untouchable. Maybe you think you are untouchable, in that case - welcome to the forum Mr Anderson Silva!

As for your assumptions concerning my sparring. No, you're wrong again. I've done other stuff, but the last 6-7 years it's been boxing and kickboxing (yes, Western as it is part in MMA) primarily with some JJ&BJJ additionally. As this open discussion shouldn't become a cock comparison, if you're really interested in a full list of styles I've done you can PM me. Although I'm not sure whether I won't get any trolling motivated answer from you, looking at how often you twisted my words, so maybe it would be better to just agree to disagree and leave it like this.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:16 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Judo or any grappling sucks for multiple opponents, you start to grapple with one guy and the rest will beat the living crap out of you, but while striking you can keep distance and pick your shots at all of them if you're good. For that reason alone, MT is way better than Judo or grappling for the streets.

Not to mention Judo hasn't translated as well to MMA so it's hard to know it's effectiveness for sure. Part of that may be because of lack of a gi or clothes for leverage, but even so it's hard to know it's true effectiveness without as significant a presence in MMA, but we've all seen time and again in MMA how brutal a good Muay Thai fighter can be.

So while judo may not be worthless, Muay Thai is superior for the streets.
Well law enfocment across the country disagrees with you, Jim travels the country teaching our form of judo to everyone from the average cop to elite military and Aniti terrorism teams.

Point blank if a boxer starts some shit in a bar, by the time he realizes what you're doing its over. You can survive a great right hand but if I throw you once, its over.

A lot of what we do in self defence can't be used in a cage but on the street its far play. You know 90% of fights end up on the ground.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Well law enfocment across the country disagrees with you, Jim travels the country teaching our form of judo to everyone from the average cop to elite military and Aniti terrorism teams.

Point blank if a boxer starts some shit in a bar, by the time he realizes what you're doing its over. You can survive a great right hand but if I throw you once, its over.

A lot of what we do in self defence can't be used in a cage but on the street its far play. You know 90% of fights end up on the ground.
When will people stop using guys armed with guns, batons, pepper spray, tazers, authority and strength in numbers as examples of good martial arts. Newsflash: these guys NEVER have to use their hand to hand skills. The most they have to do is bumrush a guy right before they mace him. Or they just shoot. When was the last time you saw a police officer / military guy judo flip someone? Any martial arts they train are never tested or proven, they're as theoretical and useless as nipples on armor.

Militaries are built on weapons not martial arts. Heck, the chinese military trains Tai Chi, lets go train some Tai chi and go kick Jon Jones' ass.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:02 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
When will people stop using guys armed with guns, batons, pepper spray, tazers, authority and strength in numbers as examples of good martial arts. Newsflash: these guys NEVER have to use their hand to hand skills. The most they have to do is bumrush a guy right before they mace him. Or they just shoot. When was the last time you saw a police officer / military guy judo flip someone? Any martial arts they train are never tested or proven, they're as theoretical and useless as nipples on armor.

Militaries are built on weapons not martial arts. Heck, the chinese military trains Tai Chi, lets go train some Tai chi and go kick Jon Jones' ass.
If we are talking about street application than the reference is just as applicable as mma references, its not like we don't see judo in mma anyway, Jones uses it very effectively. And I hope ppl know the differences between judo and greco but if you don't most of his throws are judo, and he says as much in interviews.

P.S. funny thing you would say its all theoretical Jim Harrison was a police officer in a special unit, they went after the worst of the worst and his martial arts training saved him on more than one occasion. The only person being theoretical in our conversation is you, seriously.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:37 PM   #48 (permalink)
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yeah no thanks, I'll believe my eyes, videos and commonsense any day over 5th hand accounts of people who obviously have no interest in defending their years of training, selling books and putting up glorified pictures with their martial art trophies
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #49 (permalink)
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yeah no thanks, I'll believe my eyes, videos and commonsense any day over 5th hand accounts of people who obviously have no interest in defending their years of training, selling books and putting up glorified pictures with their martial art trophies
He's my sensei, you're acting ignorant technically its second hand.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Ok, I don't know if it's worth that the discussion goes on, because you completely twist my words or put words in my mouth I didn't say so many times.



Either you haven't read at all what I've written or you're trolling. Here you go again: "I've never said everyone knows how to execute a perfect jab or other decent technical striking, but everyone knows how to throw a haymaker and with enough mass and some luck that's enough of a punch if it lands. I've also never said, that these assets will always or even mostly win, I only said that this makes up the luck factor. That's why untechnical people like Bob Sapp sometimes have success and win against highly decorated strikers like Ernesto Hoost."



No, the Gannon fight doesn't prove your point at all. The Gannon fight shows that even if you train MMA, you don't dismantle an aggressive powerful street thug that easily strikingwise (unless you're a UFC caliber fighter and maybe you think you are one of those). It took Gannon 10 minutes to win. He didn't knock him out clean with his superior striking technique. He won, because Slice was so exhausted that he couldn't stand on his feet anymore.

And yes, I'm with you, Gannon would have probably won faster in a full fight. But why is that¿ Because of the grappling which Slice wouldn't be able to deal with. That rather proves my point.



No, you're just twisting words around again. It was YOU who asked me, whether I grappled with guys that size. So don't act as you were surprised when I answer you exactly this grappling question.



Of course, striking involved it gets harder. Wow, what news!



I haven't had you on the troll radar in this forum so far, but obviously you are one. You are twisting my words, it's not funny anymore. Either you're doing it really on purpose or you're lacking reading capabilities. What's so hard to understand in this phrase I wrote: "In contrast in striking, even if I'm usually out(kick)box any newbie pretty easily, they eventually touch me from time to time". If you have that much trouble in the understanding, the semantics of that phrase are the following: It says, the noobs DO get their asses handed, but I admit that I'm not untouchable. Maybe you think you are untouchable, in that case - welcome to the forum Mr Anderson Silva!

As for your assumptions concerning my sparring. No, you're wrong again. I've done other stuff, but the last 6-7 years it's been boxing and kickboxing (yes, Western as it is part in MMA) primarily with some JJ&BJJ additionally. As this open discussion shouldn't become a cock comparison, if you're really interested in a full list of styles I've done you can PM me. Although I'm not sure whether I won't get any trolling motivated answer from you, looking at how often you twisted my words, so maybe it would be better to just agree to disagree and leave it like this.
Please point out where that guy in the video even "throws a haymaker with enough force" to hurt a fly? Execute a perfect jab? The guy couldn't execute a perfect anything other than run into fist. This is the awesome instinctual striking you claim every guy has? And trust me, I've seen worse in real life.

And even if everyone did know how to throw these mythical powerful KO haymakers of yours, you realize how easy it is to block them? When all a guy can do is throw from side to side. All you have to do is keep your arms up and you'll never git hit, because the guy has zero variation.

Sure there's thugs with good instinctual striking, but there's thugs with instinctual grappling too. One can have a good instinctual grasp of any skill out there, it's called natural talent. But even the best of prodigies are outclassed by high levels of training. A guy can be a natural musician and pick up the guitar in a month, but he's still not gonna outplay a hendrix who plays it day and night for decades, or even a guy who's played regularly for 5 years.

Oh and I'm not a troll, you're a fragile deluded guy with no recourse but "troll" for anyone who obviously shows the holes in your delusion. If you had any common sense, you'd realize how absurd it is to call someone a troll who's been a forum poster and member 5 times longer than you have. You'd think the mods would've caught on by now?


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He's my sensei, your acting ignorant.
Well I'm sorry, maybe he is really good, but I don't take story accounts as proof of anything. There's stories of Van Damme fighting in "kickboxing fights" too, but when you research, all you find are stories spread by himself and not a single video or record in an amateur or pro org.

There's mythical legendary stories about half the TMA guys out there with 500 dan belts, but not a single video or legitimate fight record. I'm not going to say that is necessarily the case with your sensei, but for the sake of the discussion and for martial arts in general for this reason, I have a very objective approach to that kind of thing.
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