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Strength & Power Training

63K views 75 replies 36 participants last post by  Curious1 
#1 · (Edited)
First and foremost, this thread was created by me to share information and hopefully enlighten some souls, please don't take it personally like I'm shoving it down your throat. You can disagree if you want but all of my thread is backed by evidence/links.

I feel the need to enlighten the many who are unaware of how to properly train for STRENGTH and POWER in regards to MMA/Martial Arts. It seems that a lot of people are stuck in the bodybuilding type routines, which is fine and dandy if you're into bodybuilding, but it doesn't transition or apply very well to martial arts. First off, let me point out some of the essential basics:

#1) You should not ever have a day where you are working out your biceps (example: "Oh yeah, today is biceps and triceps!" <--No.)
#2) Isolation exercises are BAD!!
#3) Looking big/cut does not equal being strong
#4) If you're doing crunches to get a 6-pack, you're gay
#5) You NEED to be doing squats, overhead presses, deadlifts, dips, and pull-ups.
#6) No more calf raises, leg extensions, or hamstring curls.

Now, here are a couple EXAMPLES of ways to split up your workout (these routines are primarily aimed at getting STRONGER, having a better core, and developing your posterior chain)

Example 1: 3 day Split
This is the current split I do, and is broken into a PULL day, a PRESS day, and a SQUAT day.

example Pull Day:
Deadlifts: 5x3
*5x3 means doing 5 sets of 3 reps, make sure the weight is heavy.

Wide grip pullups: BWx3x5
*Work your way up with these then start adding weight onto your pullups

Bent Over Rows:
135x3x5

Some other excercises you can do on your pull day are: Zercher deadlifts, shrugs, reverse curls, hammer curls, wrist curls, Z and chin ups.

example Press Day:

Bench Press:5x5

Overhead Press/PushPress:95x1x8
125x1x4
135x1x2
125x1x4

Dips:BWx3x10
*Just like pull-ups, you can use the weight belt for dips as you get stronger

Close Grip Bench:4x4

Other exercises you can use for press day: cleans, skullcrushers, decline DB bench, incline DB bench, push press, seated weighted bench dips

example Squat Day:
Full Squats:5x5

Front Squats:135x1x8
185x1x6
205x1x3
185x1x5

Overhead Squats:95x2x8
115x1x5

Dumbell snatches:55x2x6

other exercises you can do on squat day: lunges, lateral lunges, zercher squats, parallel squats, barbell snatches


Example 2: 2 day split

Day one:
Deadlift:5x5

Overhead press:5x5

Weighted pullup/chinup:same as before

Day two:
Squat:5x5

Benchpress:5x5

Bent over row:same as before

**All of these numbers are made up and imaginary, but are just giving you an example of what kind of weight incriments/reps you should be doing. Also, you can mixup using the 5x5 on squats,deadlifts,bench press. Another good way to do those exercises is start light, do a set of 10, then do 2-3 more sets of heavy weights with reps under 5. You can also work your way up in a pyramid type pattern, such as 4 sets of 8,6,4,2, with the weight increasing each set.


Other helpful links:

DeFranco's Training - Westside for Skinny Bastards A modified lifting program for "Hardgainers"

Eclipse Gym :: View topic - Bill Starr 5x5 Primer - How to create your own 5x5 program

Super Squats 20 Rep Squat Routine

RossTraining - Articles

Mixed Martial Arts Training Interview - The Science of Total Training

Power Training Exercises

Development of elastic strength through the use of plyometrics

ExRx Exercise & Muscle Directory



Other notes: Make sure you're still working out you're abs as well. A lot of these exercises work your core immensely already but seated weight decline situps, russian twists, saxon bends, and leg raises are just an example of some other exercises you can do on your non-lifting days. Make sure you're not doing lots of rolling on heavy deadlift days , and make sure you give yourself enough rest. Some people can do the 3 day split Mon-Wed-Fri and still train, for others its over-training. I know most people won't think anything of this article but hopefully I opened SOME peoples eyes to what strength and power training is all about.
 
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#2 ·
How can u mention bodybuilding or whatever you define as lifting around lumps of metal in the gym and not mention nutrition? In fact I just read alot on bodybuilding.com that I never knew and Ive put 8 years into the gym, and recently got back into it.

Im not interested in suppliments but reading about timing of eating has been an eye opener.

As for a routine, which lacks training certain muscles; and over emphasises others. Well there is no magic barrier stopping your body from looking freaky and out of proportion. Dont train calves > chicken legs; dont train incline bench? > pigeon chest. Dont train arms and have huge shoulders and weak arm developement and you will have a few other unkind nicknames.

ATG squads? Bodybuilders stopped doing this in the 70s because it is a great way to ruin you knees (not smart if you have to ground fight in MMA).

Shrugs on a pull day and military press on a press day? Why they are both shoulder movements?

Also when training its advantageous to "mix it up" a bit. Do slight variations of exercises to keep your muscles guessing. If you dont take my word for it, ask Rich Franklin, he has a circuit type workout where he doesnt know what the weights will be or presumably the exercises. Its on youtube if you want to search.

Did I mention nutrition? You wont get anywhere in bodybuilding without a good diet.

Also if u are just starting or getting back into weights, then you probably will want to avoid your other training since you will be hobbling about till u get into your 2nd week.
 
#3 · (Edited)
SgtSixpack said:
How can u mention bodybuilding or whatever you define as lifting around lumps of metal in the gym and not mention nutrition? In fact I just read alot on bodybuilding.com that I never knew and Ive put 8 years into the gym, and recently got back into it.

Im not interested in suppliments but reading about timing of eating has been an eye opener.

As for a routine, which lacks training certain muscles; and over emphasises others. Well there is no magic barrier stopping your body from looking freaky and out of proportion. Dont train calves > chicken legs; dont train incline bench? > pigeon chest. Dont train arms and have huge shoulders and weak arm developement and you will have a few other unkind nicknames.

ATG squads? Bodybuilders stopped doing this in the 70s because it is a great way to ruin you knees (not smart if you have to ground fight in MMA).

Shrugs on a pull day and military press on a press day? Why they are both shoulder movements?

Also when training its advantageous to "mix it up" a bit. Do slight variations of exercises to keep your muscles guessing. If you dont take my word for it, ask Rich Franklin, he has a circuit type workout where he doesnt know what the weights will be or presumably the exercises. Its on youtube if you want to search.

Did I mention nutrition? You wont get anywhere in bodybuilding without a good diet.

Also if u are just starting or getting back into weights, then you probably will want to avoid your other training since you will be hobbling about till u get into your 2nd week.
It's ridiculous how many false statements and made up things you have in that response. First of all, why would I include nutrition? Diet and nutrition is a completely different subject than strength and power training. Second of all, shrugs are not using your shoulders, but actually your BACK. Another thing you fail to realise, almost ALL of those lifts are COMPOUND LIFTS, meaning they are hitting multiple muscles at the same time. I'm sorry but your response is very ignorant/uninformed, goodluck though. Also, a "weight training circuit" has nothing to do with S&P, its a conditioning/endurance subject. And if you want to work out your calves, do some sled pulls/push your car/run with a wheelbarrow full of weights up hills. Calf raises don't make your calves ****ing strong, they make them look bigger/better.
 
#4 ·
Shrugs are performs with the trapizius, its a shoulder movement. Ive trained 8 years and Ive only seen shrugs done after doing a shoulder press of some type.

The main point I am making is that, setting a lifting program to me is just childs play. You can perform exercises but you will not get stronger without proper nutrition and sleep. Training is 20%. Im not trying to sell supliments but that bodybuilding.com has some great info on it. Probably has some good workout routines too.

I know some people say "I train everthing at once", when u can do that but your body is like everyone else's u need to allow time for it to heal after a work out. Do muscle groups once a week.

Not everyone who trains MMA will get to the UFC but gains made in the gym are yours to keep; be certain you end up looking better than you did before starting.
 
#5 ·
SgtSixpack said:
Shrugs are performs with the trapizius, its a shoulder movement. Ive trained 8 years and Ive only seen shrugs done after doing a shoulder press of some type.

The main point I am making is that, setting a lifting program to me is just childs play. You can perform exercises but you will not get stronger without proper nutrition and sleep. Training is 20%. Im not trying to sell supliments but that bodybuilding.com has some great info on it. Probably has some good workout routines too.

I know some people say "I train everthing at once", when u can do that but your body is like everyone else's u need to allow time for it to heal after a work out. Do muscle groups once a week.

Not everyone who trains MMA will get to the UFC but gains made in the gym are yours to keep; be certain you end up looking better than you did before starting.
http://www.criticalbench.com/exercises/pics/exercises-traps.gif

As you can see, they are NOT apart of your shoulders. Common misconception, no worries. And you WILL get stronger even without proper nutrition and sleep, obviously those things are both very important but you can have the best diet in the world and the best sleep cycles in the world but if you don't DO ANY TRAINING, you will never get bigger/stronger, seems kinda weird training is only 20% to you, those 8 years must have been very beneficial
 
#6 ·
I do calf raises all the time. I have since I was 9 or 10. By saying that they do not make your calves stronger you sound very ignorant. Do a couple hundred a day while you are watching TV or doing the dishes. If your calves and ankles aint stronger than you must be inhuman.
 
#7 ·
wukkadb, for the listed routine the 3 day split I was wondering if those exercises are compatible to use with a resistance band rather than free weights. I've been using nothing but resistance bands besides body weight exercises and I really like the result I get from them. They are good because you can instantly go heavy or light with them, and they do give quite a bit of resistance. Also do you include conditioning training as well or just the tree days as shown?
 
#8 ·
smith06 said:
I do calf raises all the time. I have since I was 9 or 10. By saying that they do not make your calves stronger you sound very ignorant. Do a couple hundred a day while you are watching TV or doing the dishes. If your calves and ankles aint stronger than you must be inhuman.
sorry, but that's not how you get muscles STRONGER smith06. maybe your muscles will be able to endure more pain/fatigue and be bigger/more toned, but they won't be STRONGER. also, bodyweight calf raises are basically pointless, go push your car up and down the drive way 5 times every night, your calves will be big and strong.

dubya said:
wukkadb, for the listed routine the 3 day split I was wondering if those exercises are compatible to use with a resistance band rather than free weights. I've been using nothing but resistance bands besides body weight exercises and I really like the result I get from them. They are good because you can instantly go heavy or light with them, and they do give quite a bit of resistance. Also do you include conditioning training as well or just the tree days as shown?
Yes, conditioning is included as well. I do conditioning specifically 3 times a week , but you really do conditioning every day if you're training(rolling, sparring, padwork, etc). Resistance bands are something you should be doing on a conditioning day, not weight training day. Strength training is meant to be HEAVY free weights with LOW repetitions. I can tell you haven't checked out any of the links I put on my first post, it'd do you wonders to just check them out.

Here's an article from one of those links I posted concerning resistance bands:
RossTraining - Articles

He uses resistance bands also to work on his rotation and core but as you can see, it's more of a conditioning tool, not strength tool.

I think people are mixing up the term 'strength training' with too many other things.
 
#9 ·
I disagree with what you say about resistance bands. Yes there are lighter ones but the ones I am currently using are super heavy and they provide more resistance the the weights I used to use and I get a lot bigger pump while using them. I don't use the whole length of the band I put my grip lower so when Im at the top of my lift or whatever im doing the band will not stretch any further. I believe this works well for me each person has their own methods. Other than this the rest of my work is with body weight or rolling on the ball.

However I will take your advice on the type of exercises you had mentioned.
 
#10 ·
dubya said:
I disagree with what you say about resistance bands. Yes there are lighter ones but the ones I am currently using are super heavy and they provide more resistance the the weights I used to use and I get a lot bigger pump while using them. I don't use the whole length of the band I put my grip lower so when Im at the top of my lift or whatever im doing the band will not stretch any further. I believe this works well for me each person has their own methods. Other than this the rest of my work is with body weight or rolling on the ball.

However I will take your advice on the type of exercises you had mentioned.
Resistance bands and bodyweight exercises DO provide good benefits for strength, but you will never be as strong doing those as you will doing PowerLifting type exercises. Who are the strongest people in the world? Olympic power lifters and Strongmen. Their lifts and routines fit very well into martial arts. This link that I posted earlier has an interview with 3 of the top MMA Strength coaches in the game:
Mixed Martial Arts Training Interview - The Science of Total Training

Here's a short clip from there:
Typically I only use ground based lifts (deadlifts, cleans etc). I have a great photo of Tito Ortiz in full triple extension – exactly what the Olympic lifts develop. Who says the Olympic lifts don’t transfer to sport?!

We tend to use a lot of offset lifts (i.e. loading in one arm, DB snatches, etc.) to better simulate the lack of balance in a fight.

Prior to any weight training we use bodyweight exercises – a fighter has no business using loads if he (or she) cannot stabilize and control their own bodyweight.

And as far as the lower body goes – a fighter spends so much time in a split stance or on one leg we use a LOT of unilateral work.

As far as typical weaknesses – every ATHLETE I have ever worked with needs more posterior chain work. Fighters are no exception.
 
#12 ·
You have a point but it doesn't apply to me, it would if I were trying to be the strongest man in the world, although that is not my goal. You don't have to be the strongest the be a good fighter and that is my goal.
 
#14 · (Edited)
wukkadb said:
http://www.criticalbench.com/exercises/pics/exercises-traps.gif

As you can see, they are NOT apart of your shoulders. Common misconception, no worries. And you WILL get stronger even without proper nutrition and sleep, obviously those things are both very important but you can have the best diet in the world and the best sleep cycles in the world but if you don't DO ANY TRAINING, you will never get bigger/stronger, seems kinda weird training is only 20% to you, those 8 years must have been very beneficial
If u give people a program and they stick to it thinking its straight from god, it will cause problems. You have to adjust what you do to suit your strengths and weaknesses and also to prevent injury.

About the traps, its a shoulder movement. You will use your traps doing a military press. If you do shrugs when standing you will be exercising a muscle which is part of the compound group of muscles which together can perform a behind the neck press or military press.

http://www.criticalbench.com/exercises/pics/exercises-traps.gif
That is a stupid picture because the guy has no neck, its all traps. Have u seen Matt Huges' neck? Its thick and as wide as his head. Doing behind the neck press will make your neck thick. I have personal experience of this. Which is why I say start with a program but use it as a guide, not law. Change it if you see that you are overdeveloping one muscle group at the expence of another.

If u knew what you were talking about, you would see that posting a workout routine for everyone it wont be suited to everyone. You should state its a guide and to change it if the results are not what you wanted.

Wukkadb said:
you can have the best diet in the world and the best sleep cycles in the world but if you don't DO ANY TRAINING, you will never get bigger/stronger
Only a moron would write such drivel. If u dont eat you will die. If u dont sleep you wont get stronger cause its when sleeping you muscles repair themselves. Also if u dont eat, your body will canabalize (read catabolic) your muscles for energy. Just look at anorexia sufferes and concentration camp prisoners, they lose muscle mass to the extreme.

Bodybuilding.com - Joey Rodrigues - Shoulder Training 101.
Oh look, what is this guy doing? Shrugs after doing shoulder workout, how odd?



"DUMBBELL SHRUGS

Dumbbell shrugs develop the trapezius muscles and add mass and density to the trapezius."
Lol, my point is proven I believe.
 
#15 · (Edited)
dubya said:
You have a point but it doesn't apply to me, it would if I were trying to be the strongest man in the world, although that is not my goal. You don't have to be the strongest the be a good fighter and that is my goal.
Strength isn't a concern of yours? This topic is about STRENGTH TRAINING, not about being a complete fighter. This post is for people who want to get stronger and apply it to fighting.

And to SgtSixpack below me, the traps are not part of your shoulders, theyre part of your back. The shoulder is divided into 3 heads, Also, how are you comparing a military press and a shrug? One involves pressing while one involves pulling, completely different exercises!

http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/Images/exercise-workout/back-muscle-chart.jpg
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/images/ex_shoulers.gif

You're wrong.
 
#16 ·
wukkadb said:
Strength isn't a concern of yours? This topic is about STRENGTH TRAINING, not about being a complete fighter. This post is for people who want to get stronger and apply it to fighting.
It is a concern although I can still gain strength by doing what Im doing, I don't need strongest man in the world strength though, just enough to put knowledge and skill to use...
 
#17 ·
dubya said:
It is a concern although I can still gain strength by doing what Im doing, I don't need strongest man in the world strength though, just enough to put knowledge and skill to use...
If you say so, but when you get to the top competition of MMA, everybody is going to have the same technique and skill; strength and conditioning become very important
 
#18 ·
wukkadb said:
Strength isn't a concern of yours? This topic is about STRENGTH TRAINING, not about being a complete fighter. This post is for people who want to get stronger and apply it to fighting.

And to SgtSixpack below me, the traps are not part of your shoulders, theyre part of your back. The shoulder is divided into 3 heads, Also, how are you comparing a military press and a shrug? One involves pressing while one involves pulling, completely different exercises!

http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/Images/exercise-workout/back-muscle-chart.jpg
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/images/ex_shoulers.gif

You're wrong.
You really cant read straight can u? I said its used in a compound exercise for the shoulders (the most basic shoulder exercise), the behind the neck press or military press; hence almost every person making a program will include shrugs with the shoulder workout NOT the back! Just look at the links I provided.
 
#19 ·
wukkadb said:
If you say so, but when you get to the top competition of MMA, everybody is going to have the same technique and skill; strength and conditioning become very important
More rubbish, so a MMA fighter with a wrestling and kickboxing background (ala Chuck Liddel) will have the same level of skills as a BBJ fighter/boxing (Vitor Belfort).:dunno:
 
#20 ·
SgtSixpack said:
ATG squads? Bodybuilders stopped doing this in the 70s because it is a great way to ruin you knees (not smart if you have to ground fight in MMA).
You didnt defend this statement.

SgtSixpack said:
Shrugs on a pull day and military press on a press day? Why they are both shoulder movements?
I didnt say "traps" are shoulders, "traps" are "traps" and deltoids are deltoids; but the basic shoulder exercise uses traps so thats why everyone and his dog does shrugs on a shoulder day. Not that Shrugs are an essential exercise. I dont do them because by the time u done bicepts you have worked your traps. When doing bench you use your front detoids. When doing back exercises you work you rear delts alot.

At one point in my training I found I was overtraining my front deltoids because they were hurting when I did bicepts or went for a jog.

One program does not fit all gym users.
 
#21 ·
SgtSixpack said:
You didnt defend this statement.


I didnt say "traps" are shoulders, "traps" are "traps" and deltoids are deltoids; but the basic shoulder exercise uses traps so thats why everyone and his dog does shrugs on a shoulder day. Not that Shrugs are an essential exercise. I dont do them because by the time u done bicepts you have worked your traps. When doing bench you use your front detoids. When doing back exercises you work you rear delts alot.

At one point in my training I found I was overtraining my front deltoids because they were hurting when I did bicepts or went for a jog.

One program does not fit all gym users.

Only bodybuilders have a "shoulder" day so I could care less what they do. I break my workouts into a PULL day, a PRESS day, and a SQUAT day, I am looking to get strong, not look good in front of the mirror and have a small *****. As far as ATG Squats go, you got it backwards, ATG squats are actually better for your knees than parallel because it is a full compound movement, you'd know this if you took any physiology class.

"In a properly-positioned full-depth squat (hips below the knees), tension in the hamstrings balances the forces on the knee joint by opposing the force of the quadriceps. If the depth of the squat is not sufficient to generate this hamstring tension, the tension of the quadriceps on the knee is disproportionately great, resulting in potentially damaging shear force" -taken from Nutrition, Fitness, Athletics, Health, Longevity, Paleo, Intermittent Fasting - The Performance Menu ,article 15.


I seriously can't believe people like you can look at all the information I have provided and still think you're right. Then again, your name is 'SgtSixPack'
 
#22 · (Edited)
ATG squats puts all the weight onto the knee joint. When u see a strongman event how does he lift the atlas stones? With a parallel squad or ATG squats. With a parallel squat u use your glutimus maximum (your ass) which is the largest muscle in your body.

Why would u recommend doing shrugs and not bicepts or tricepts?

You are quite stuborn even when u know you are wrong. I hope u dont think that if u get armbarred then your stuborness will stop you arm getting broken.

You are from San Diego and have an avtar of a samuri, wow. What do you know about Samuri have u ever seen one IRL? Your Nick looks like you accidentatly mashed the keyboard.
 
#23 · (Edited)
wukkadb said:
Only bodybuilders have a "shoulder" day so I could care less what they do. I break my workouts into a PULL day, a PRESS day, and a SQUAT day,
You routine is retarded. There isnt a thing as a pull, press, squat day because u made it up.

SgtSixpack said:
You really cant read straight can u? I said its used in a compound exercise for the shoulders (the most basic shoulder exercise), the behind the neck press or military press; hence almost every person making a program will include shrugs with the shoulder workout NOT the back! Just look at the links I provided.
On your press day you are doing a shoulder press so it makes it retarded you do shrugs on your pull day. You are using your traps on both pull and press day. The idea of a program is to work groups of muscles together and then do a different group of muscles together. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
 
#24 · (Edited)
SgtSixpack said:
You routine is retarded. There isnt a thing as a pull, press, squat day because u made it up.



On your press day you are doing a shoulder press so it makes it retarded you do shrugs on your pull day. You are using your traps on both pull and press day. The idea of a program is to work groups of muscles together and then do a different group of muscles together. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Do you wanna see who I got my pull, press, squat day routine from?

00007

YouTube - St Wilhelm's, 00007, 137.5kg Zercher Deadlift

YouTube - St Wilhelm's, Member 00007, Cambridge, Can crushing medley

YouTube - St Wilhelm's, Member 00007, Cambridge, Powerlifting 3

Please look at my links and READ some material before you go posting your idiotic remarks. It's funny because I'm posting links and evidence in almost EVERY one of my responses, and you have yet to post ANYTHING of any sort of value. Kinda ironic how you're the one telling me i don't know anything i'm talking about.
 
#26 ·
SgtSixpack said:
Your picture looks pathetically weak with no calves or bicepts and I stopped watching on your zerker deadlift. Your legs were 75% straight before u picted up the bar.
That wasn't me you idiot. And after reading your response I'm gonna stop replying, no point wasting my time with idiots. Good luck training!
 
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