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Strength & Power Training Discussion of strength training as part of your MMA conditioning program.

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-10-2009, 05:19 PM
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never use weights.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-11-2009, 05:46 AM Thread Starter
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hahahahaah is that guy serious? lol i like gong fu hahaha

Its almost as if I like to be tapped out! lol
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-11-2009, 10:42 PM
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well he's a world wrestling champion, and his books are great. so yes.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by S0VERE1GN View Post
well he's a world wrestling champion, and his books are great. so yes.
well if that works for him then fiar enough. But some people like me need to do them to maintain strength

Its almost as if I like to be tapped out! lol
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 07:00 PM
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Give the free exercises he has on his website a try in supplement to what you do already, the Back Bridge is extremely intense, and builds some serious total body strength.
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 01:38 AM
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The camp's that don't believe in weights, have their opinions based under the premise of not wanting to add movement binding muscle. However, that premise is a fallacy because there's a misconception in the correlation between muscle hypertrophy, muscle strength and muscle power. Old timers, ESPECIALLY the Asian culture, feared being "muscle bound" by too much muscle, so weight training was taboo and all your strength training were primarily BW.

However, you can be stronger and more powerful [those are two separate concepts], then someone who possesses more muscle then you. Muscle size, is just the hypertrophy of the muscle cells. Strength, is the mechanical efficiency of the muscle, ie. muscle fiber recruitment by motor units per contraction. Power consists not only of superior muscle fiber recruitment by motor units per contraction, but also coordinated motor unit firing, increased neuron firing (of acetylcholine) and decreased excitation of the golgi tendon and decreased co-contraction of antagonist muscles in high velocity situations, such as a strike.

Without delving into the details of all that mumbo jumbo, YES, weight training is beneficial and a superior form of training as oppose to exclusively BW. Yes you can train core muscles without weights, but nothing you do with your body weight (such as a plank or weighted crunches) will equate to the kind of core stimulation dead lifts or front squats incite.

Yes you can train power using body weight, plyometrics are primarily body weight exercises, however, plyometrics train the stretch shortening cycle, which may help with an explosive TD, but it's not training your hip extension [& flexion] which is the absolute core power of your strikes, TD, TDD's and sweeps, like doing cleans and snatches.

I'll try to make some analogies to create some clarity in all this mumbo jumbo.

Here is an example of muscle efficiency, destroying superior muscle mass/volume. If the amount of quads, glutes, hams, calves muscle determined how fast you can run, then pro bodybuilders would be the fastest people on earth, but they are not at all. Olympic sprinters, though they are muscular themselves, they are dainty compared to a Ronnie Coleman, but the sprinter possesses explosiveness, which is the amount of peak force you can generate in a single moment, therefore, with each stride, the Olympic sprinter is outputting Zx'Z amount of force against the ground in a split second. The pro bodybuilder, though he can out squat the sprinter by hundreds & hundreds of pounds, his muscles aren't primed for power, which is the ability to generate peak force output in a single burst, so with each stride, his output is only Z (as opposed to Zx's Z). Now if the bodybuilder had 3-5 seconds to generate that force, the he'd be dominant, but that need for the extended duration to produce max force is an example of strength, whereas, power (like strikes, kicks, TD's, TDD, Sprawls) are a display of power, quick, maximal single bursts.

Core strength or strength period, is displayed as a Brock vs Mir II. Power, was Nate vs Maia. You can be strong and slow (aka lacking power), you can also be the smaller, weaker guy, but posses superior power.

Size, Strength and Power do have correlations, but at their root, they are three separate concepts at the upper echelon of each attribute. You don't need to be muscular to be powerful and core strength only includes your abdominals, hip, pelvic, lumbar region, which does not require you to be swole to posses.

Use weights was the gist of my argument.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 12:24 PM
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That is totally reasonable from a science standpoint, and I believe it as well. The reason why I don't believe a fighter or anyone in fight sport needs weights is for this simple reason

How heavy is the guy you're fighting?

the same weight as you are, and that's what you need to worry about throwing around.

Now I used to lift heavy weight til i was blue in the face, I had a nearly 300 lb bench at one time and a 600 lb squat, but the funny thing is my wrestling buddies in high school would grab me after the gym every day and say "hey come work out with us!"

and I'd go do bodyweight exercises, and they'd kick my ass.
These exercises drove my bench press up to 290 and my squat up to nearly 600, then i just stopped doing them. just dropped weight lifting.

I could still hit just as hard on the field, i still ran just as fast, and in fact i got stronger. and my "binding muscles" , those big bulky muscles that people who use BW are supposedly afraid of? i dunno cuz my arms and legs got bigger, and I gained a bigger chest size.

weights work great, and I have plenty of friends that use them and get enormous gains. But every once in a while I get one to work out with me for a day and they usually don't go back.

If you're even thinking about attempting a BW regimen, which is what the thread title seemed to suggest) then try it! but don't skimp on yourself. There are a hundred different ways to do a pushup, each one hits a muscle differently than the next, same thing with squats, leg lifts, crunches, and jumping jacks. if you try a bodyweight routine, exercise each muscle til FAILURE, because you can do that (theyre only little pansy bodyweight exercises) and you'll be ready for more tomorrow when you wake up. and you'll be stronger, just from that overnight of sleep. THAT is the advantage to bodyweight.
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 04:54 PM
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Very well put Volcom. I'd say in mma that if you didnt have access to weights that BW would be better than nothing, but not even close to being equal to loaded resistance training. As for Furey, he is a disgusting self serving, swindling pig. Don't ask me, ask Karl Gotch, his "mentor".

Matt furey CON reaveled by karl gotch READ


Tampa, 18th July '05 Dear Jake, Thanks for sending me that copy of the fat man Matt Furey's website. As you know I don't have a computer and I don't know how to use it, but as I can see he employs it for a con game to steal from some poor guys that love the sport. He hung around me for about 5 months not over two years as he states. He writes, "What's Old is New - What's New is Old" well he uses this to put his hand in the poor guys pocket and grab the money. I found him out when he talked me into making a tape I had about conditioning commercial, I had made the tape as proof, because after my double hip replacement I could not do many of those things anymore and a picture is worth a thousand words. I told him to never use my name again with anything he ever did. The man is a disgrace to wrestling and has no honor at all, he can walk under a snakes belly wearing a top hat. To give you an idea what real pro-wrestling is lets take boxing as an example, even as an Olympic Champ when you turn pro you have to start all over again because it's completely different. Here in the U.S.A they had the best in the world, men like Strangler Lewis, Toots Mondt, John Pesek, etc. would take the life out of anyone that challenged them. Wrestling is opposite of what people think it is, it is not strength but knowledge, balance, and timing, leverage and where to place the fulcrum, that's what it takes to make it to the top in the noble art of wrestling. Also, the most difficult sport is wrestling because contrary to other combat sports you have to learn to attack and defend from 3 different positions; standing-up, on all fours and underneath. It takes know how to do that, and your best hold is condition, even the best automobile won't run without gas, oil, and water. People now go for excitement and to something that is easy to understand, that's why football, base-ball and basketball are drawing the big crowds, plus they are team sport, they change their players in and out. Wrestling in the amateurs should never be less than 12 minutes a match, then you can see the best man. I wrote you all this to show you that how can a fat slob like Furey, that doesn't know his elbow from his rear end, tell and show these poor boys that he charges an arm and a leg and a finger thrown in? Wrestling is a workman's sport, you need no expensive equipment and can practice it anywhere, and here is this greedy, fat no good misfit charging them all this money for nothing. I never took one cent from a boy to show him how to wrestle, all I asked for is guts. I can make you strong, fast, agile and train you for endurance and reflex, but guts you get when you are born. I hope that we can find a way to stop this misfit from fleecing those poor guys, thanks again for letting me know. Yours, Karl
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 01:22 PM
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Good to know, thanks for opening my eyes!

bodyweight is still boss tho :-p
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-02-2009, 01:17 PM
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It all depends on time. If you want to build enough muscle in your arms, chest, core legs and back for a fight in three months, weight train. If youre talking about building significant amounts of fighting muscle over the long term repition and stances work just fine.

I have a friend who's learning Freestyle Mantis Form kung fu and his sei-fu has never once done a benchpress in his 40 odd years. He holds stances and punches and kicks over and over and the complexity of motion in kung fu helps build muscle since you have to use them in awkward positions many times.

But if you want lots of effective flashy muscle right now. Weight lifting is your only option. But the muscle won't be nearly as powerful and dense as if it came over the long term.
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