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Old 05-19-2010, 03:49 PM   #271 (permalink)
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Wow, squirrelfighter, I did not see this question come up on here. I'm sorry about that, man.



Keep in mind, I come from a thai/san shou background.



O.K. so it's not just about jamming the foot, though (in my experience) that's a pretty good deterrent.

The problem is that when an opponent is moving, there's always a chance he's going to check that kick, and if he checks a kick on you shin, the chances of serious injury are much lower than if he checks a kick on the ball of the foot.

The metatarsus isn't strictly fragile, but the way that the elbow can hit the bones in the foot and the way that the foot can get bent back makes that placement really worrisome.




I think that's a pretty huge exaggeration. The kick isn't thrown that radically differently (the hips are still functionally the same, as is the core) but there is a ton of form involved.

Frankly, when it comes to landing on the body, I've also found the shin more painful to be on the other end of, though it may be that my better training partners are thai.




These aren't things that disappear in effective kicks with the shins. There are different approaches to the shin kick, but I've never trained a shin kick without turning over the hips and engaging the core.

The snapping motion in the lower leg is actually pretty useless in retrospect. I realize that there are lots of form schools that teach it (and many of the shotokan guys I train with in Fresno use it) but it adds only a small bit of force and can make the angle very awkward if you have an opponent who moves into it. Besides, the power in the kick should, realistically, come from the hips and core, and not from the quad, which is where the snapping motion comes from.




If I want to maintain my reach advantage, I tend to stick strictly to hands and thai style pushkicks. But with my background, I basically never want to be at full range. I like closing the distance, it's how I roll.

It does seem that kicks with the instep have more precision, because of the control over that snapping motion, and they definitely have more range. But in terms of effectiveness in kickboxing and MMA, they're pretty limited.

It's my opinion that the kick presents a high risk of injury without a serious risk of damaging you're opponent, and that's a really bad thing in a technique.

No problem at all man, I was glancing around the thread and this caught my eye and seeing as you are a wickedly intelligent debater, I figured it was okay to ask!

The solidness of your points is the usual granite. I agree that the hips and core are the most fundamental parts of power in a roundhouse. However geometry, physics and the such suggest that the shin is not the MOST powerful option as a striking point, though it is without question the safest option. On the point of the usefulness of the snapping motion, which is undoubtably debateable, I stand on the side that believes if you use proper form and rotation of the core/hips why not add the additional kinetic energy of the snapping lower leg?

On the subject of the roundhouses with the ball of my foot. I was not specific in that I did not explain that I no longer jam my toes. The tendons and ligaments give further now after a regrettabley large amount of training to the point where they retract farther back, fairly close to 90 degrees. My biggest worry isn't my metatarsels its more that my toes will catch his shin as it checks and I'll break one.

I suspect our roots have a lot to do with our differing ideas on the subject. Just from a cursory glance at your training background, you are likely much more comfortable close in than I am. I find most of my basis and comfort in striking, more specifically striking for long range. And while the straight/side thrust kick is effective at keeping distance, using only that kick to do so IMO leads to your opponent getting your timing down. I try to keep my kicks as versatile as possible to avoid this possibility.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:21 PM   #272 (permalink)
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No problem at all man, I was glancing around the thread and this caught my eye and seeing as you are a wickedly intelligent debater, I figured it was okay to ask!
Of course. And the only way I stay sharp is by thinking and talking about and working on technique and knowledge of the sport.

Quote:
The solidness of your points is the usual granite. I agree that the hips and core are the most fundamental parts of power in a roundhouse. However geometry, physics and the such suggest that the shin is not the MOST powerful option as a striking point, though it is without question the safest option. On the point of the usefulness of the snapping motion, which is undoubtably debateable, I stand on the side that believes if you use proper form and rotation of the core/hips why not add the additional kinetic energy of the snapping lower leg?
There are a couple of reasons why I don't like the snapping motion, and don't think it's effective.

Firstly, I think that a lot of people use it as an excuse to take the emphasis of the hips. This is, of course, just bad form, but I think that when the snapping motion becomes a part of the techniques, the hips become de-emphasized. I see this alot with point-sparring guys and guys who spar for speed.

Secondly, and more importantly, I think that the snap kick allows your opponent to move into the strike in ways which minimize the damage by virtue of the leg not being fully extended. I've found that stepping in to check snapping kicks is pretty easy and seriously reduces the impact.


Quote:
On the subject of the roundhouses with the ball of my foot. I was not specific in that I did not explain that I no longer jam my toes. The tendons and ligaments give further now after a regrettabley large amount of training to the point where they retract farther back, fairly close to 90 degrees. My biggest worry isn't my metatarsels its more that my toes will catch his shin as it checks and I'll break one.
The worry about the toes is a legitimate one.

I added the bit about the metatarsus because it's a common injury that I see in the gym, with guys who throw the kick. It periodically lands the top of the foot on the elbow, which can cause some serious damage.

It is true that you can minimize damage to the ankle and ball of the foot by toughening them up. Still, the risk for serious injury is still there, especially against a hard check, in a way that it isn't with the shin kick.


Quote:
I suspect our roots have a lot to do with our differing ideas on the subject. Just from a cursory glance at your training background, you are likely much more comfortable close in than I am. I find most of my basis and comfort in striking, more specifically striking for long range. And while the straight/side thrust kick is effective at keeping distance, using only that kick to do so IMO leads to your opponent getting your timing down. I try to keep my kicks as versatile as possible to avoid this possibility.
Yeah, the more techniques and variability, the better. What I've found is that there is no running from an opponent who wants to clinch and get the takedown. The best defense is to land strikes to make them worried about closing the distance.

But that's just my experience working with strikers, as the guy on the receiving end of that tactical decision.
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:43 PM   #273 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Of course. And the only way I stay sharp is by thinking and talking about and working on technique and knowledge of the sport.]
I totally agree, if I didn't talk to others about things and stuck to my own staunch beliefs I wouldn't evolve at all.

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There are a couple of reasons why I don't like the snapping motion, and don't think it's effective.

Firstly, I think that a lot of people use it as an excuse to take the emphasis of the hips. This is, of course, just bad form, but I think that when the snapping motion becomes a part of the techniques, the hips become de-emphasized. I see this alot with point-sparring guys and guys who spar for speed.

Secondly, and more importantly, I think that the snap kick allows your opponent to move into the strike in ways which minimize the damage by virtue of the leg not being fully extended. I've found that stepping in to check snapping kicks is pretty easy and seriously reduces the impact.
]
On the first point, I agree that when it comes to throwing with the snap, it can take the emphasis off the rotation of the entire body, but thats the point of proper technique, before any kind of advanced development like the snap.

On the second point, I've never really considered the implications of moving inside the radius of the strike before it reaches full extention in the snap, I assume while using a deflective block. In doing that you very well might be able to throw your opponent off balance momentarily and create an opening to shoot...very sneaky Ironman! Thanks for opening my eyes to this inherent weakness, I'll need to keep it in mind.

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The worry about the toes is a legitimate one.

I added the bit about the metatarsus because it's a common injury that I see in the gym, with guys who throw the kick. It periodically lands the top of the foot on the elbow, which can cause some serious damage.

It is true that you can minimize damage to the ankle and ball of the foot by toughening them up. Still, the risk for serious injury is still there, especially against a hard check, in a way that it isn't with the shin kick.
Yeah, I've landed with my metatarsus more than once. It hurts like no other, but its a reminder to have proper form and to be wary of throwing the wrong kick against the wrong opponent at the wrong time. But in some cases, using just a shin kick limits where and when you can strike, and I don't like those kinds of limitations, my opponent controlling where I can hit him, at my favored distance.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Yeah, the more techniques and variability, the better. What I've found is that there is no running from an opponent who wants to clinch and get the takedown. The best defense is to land strikes to make them worried about closing the distance.

But that's just my experience working with strikers, as the guy on the receiving end of that tactical decision.
Thanks for this bit, any kind of look into the psyche of a Mixed Martial Artist who tends to like any specific area is greatly appreciated. My sparring parter occassionally goes for clinches or even takedowns(some instances are me pulling guard)but he is in no way a grappler and an understanding of the versed grappler's mind is a great advantage in my opinion.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:18 PM   #274 (permalink)
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On the first point, I agree that when it comes to throwing with the snap, it can take the emphasis off the rotation of the entire body, but thats the point of proper technique, before any kind of advanced development like the snap.
Absolutely.

Quote:
On the second point, I've never really considered the implications of moving inside the radius of the strike before it reaches full extention in the snap, I assume while using a deflective block. In doing that you very well might be able to throw your opponent off balance momentarily and create an opening to shoot...very sneaky Ironman! Thanks for opening my eyes to this inherent weakness, I'll need to keep it in mind.
It's what I do. Gotta be sneaky on my feet, because I'm not that good at the technique yet.

Quote:
Yeah, I've landed with my metatarsus more than once. It hurts like no other, but its a reminder to have proper form and to be wary of throwing the wrong kick against the wrong opponent at the wrong time.
Sure. It's that exposure to injury that's inherent in the kick, though. Regardless of who you're fighting, if they respond to a kick in a particular way, given some slight mitigating factors, it can be seriously painful. I try and avoid any technique that exposes me to unnecessary risk.

Quote:
But in some cases, using just a shin kick limits where and when you can strike, and I don't like those kinds of limitations, my opponent controlling where I can hit him, at my favored distance.
Sure.

Again, this is stylistic. I look to close distance when I fight, and the shin kick is good at effectively closing distance. There are people who have more advanced technical games standing up, and those need other techniques, but if given the option, the shin kick is still preferable to the kick with the foot, because of that inherent exposure to injury.


Quote:
Thanks for this bit, any kind of look into the psyche of a Mixed Martial Artist who tends to like any specific area is greatly appreciated. My sparring parter occassionally goes for clinches or even takedowns(some instances are me pulling guard)but he is in no way a grappler and an understanding of the versed grappler's mind is a great advantage in my opinion.
Since that's pretty much all I have, I'm glad people appreciate it.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:05 AM   #275 (permalink)
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It's what I do. Gotta be sneaky on my feet, because I'm not that good at the technique yet.
Haha, okay. Still even though you say you're not that good at the techniques yet, you obviously understand all of the body mechanics completely.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Sure. It's that exposure to injury that's inherent in the kick, though. Regardless of who you're fighting, if they respond to a kick in a particular way, given some slight mitigating factors, it can be seriously painful. I try and avoid any technique that exposes me to unnecessary risk.
The same is possible with shin kicks in some cases. I once had my sparring parter drop and elbow straight down on a straight snap attempt. That was rediculously painful. I dropped and pulled a Peter Griffin, grabbing it and hissing! In hindsight, its freakin hilarious!

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Sure.

Again, this is stylistic. I look to close distance when I fight, and the shin kick is good at effectively closing distance. There are people who have more advanced technical games standing up, and those need other techniques, but if given the option, the shin kick is still preferable to the kick with the foot, because of that inherent exposure to injury.
I see what you mean and I agree that the shin kick is much better prepartory to closing distance, not only is it a much more overpowering weapon in appearance, but it draws your opponents guard in defense of the kick, leaving him open to hand strikes as you come in. This is not an advantage of the instep version which is more useful in a stick-and-move sense, at least for me.

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Since that's pretty much all I have, I'm glad people appreciate it.
Well shit, based on what I've read, if I had a faction of your grappling training I'd be on cloud nine! All my grappling training comes from a bit of Japanese Ju-jutsu training which is taught in that whole street self-defense way, making the techniques only so useful without alteration. Such is the nature of the beast right!
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:33 AM   #276 (permalink)
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The same is possible with shin kicks in some cases. I once had my sparring parter drop and elbow straight down on a straight snap attempt. That was rediculously painful. I dropped and pulled a Peter Griffin, grabbing it and hissing! In hindsight, its freakin hilarious!
I have kicks deflected off of the elbow and the knee and awkward parts of the shin all the time, and don't have any issues. I've spent a lot of time toughening up my shins, though, so that may have something to do with it.

Quote:
I see what you mean and I agree that the shin kick is much better prepartory to closing distance, not only is it a much more overpowering weapon in appearance, but it draws your opponents guard in defense of the kick, leaving him open to hand strikes as you come in. This is not an advantage of the instep version which is more useful in a stick-and-move sense, at least for me.
Yeah. More importantly than that, though, there are variations on the shin kick that are absolutely vicious off of a left hook, which (in my experience) is the most effective combination for closing the distance.

The power can make the opponent tentative, but more importantly it forces them to move at a relatively regulated distance while your center of gravity is slightly lower than normal, which is exactly what you want when looking for a Greco clinch that sets up the throw.


Quote:
Well shit, based on what I've read, if I had a faction of your grappling training I'd be on cloud nine! All my grappling training comes from a bit of Japanese Ju-jutsu training which is taught in that whole street self-defense way, making the techniques only so useful without alteration. Such is the nature of the beast right!
I've been very lucky in that I've trained with a lot of people who are much, much better than I am, and that helps a lot.

I'm fortunate that during the school year I get to work with one of the greatest living judoka in Sensei Imamura and when I go home I get to train under Eduard Rocha and with the phenomenal team at Rocha JJ. It's a wonderful regimen, and I work hard to keep up with those guys.
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:02 AM   #277 (permalink)
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I have kicks deflected off of the elbow and the knee and awkward parts of the shin all the time, and don't have any issues. I've spent a lot of time toughening up my shins, though, so that may have something to do with it.]
It may have had to do with conditioning. I have since conditioned them much more than they were at that point, but I think it had more to do with him dropping the elbow just right on my shin, at just the right time. I have never before or since felt that kind of pain, and I've blown out knees and smashed fingers more than once.

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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Yeah. More importantly than that, though, there are variations on the shin kick that are absolutely vicious off of a left hook, which (in my experience) is the most effective combination for closing the distance.

The power can make the opponent tentative, but more importantly it forces them to move at a relatively regulated distance while your center of gravity is slightly lower than normal, which is exactly what you want when looking for a Greco clinch that sets up the throw.
]
That is a good combination, expecially when you want to go for the clinch. I have to try that one one of these sparring sessions to see how it feels. I think one of my issues with my striking, and even my movemnt, inside, is a fairly large amount of skill anxiety when I'm in that area. I think I need to broaden my area of training a bit when I've got my money situation where I like it.

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I've been very lucky in that I've trained with a lot of people who are much, much better than I am, and that helps a lot.

I'm fortunate that during the school year I get to work with one of the greatest living judoka in Sensei Imamura and when I go home I get to train under Eduard Rocha and with the phenomenal team at Rocha JJ. It's a wonderful regimen, and I work hard to keep up with those guys.
Damn man, that's a great training set up!
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:43 AM   #278 (permalink)
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It may have had to do with conditioning. I have since conditioned them much more than they were at that point, but I think it had more to do with him dropping the elbow just right on my shin, at just the right time. I have never before or since felt that kind of pain, and I've blown out knees and smashed fingers more than once.
Yeah, not an experience I've ever had, and not one I'm particularly worried about.

Quote:
That is a good combination, expecially when you want to go for the clinch. I have to try that one one of these sparring sessions to see how it feels. I think one of my issues with my striking, and even my movemnt, inside, is a fairly large amount of skill anxiety when I'm in that area. I think I need to broaden my area of training a bit when I've got my money situation where I like it.
Yeah, anxiety can be a big problem, especially with the clinch. The best thing to do is learn some clinch techniques, learn some ground techniques and some takedown defense to build confidence in that area.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:12 PM   #279 (permalink)
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Yeah, not an experience I've ever had, and not one I'm particularly worried about.
Yeah, I think it might have been an incidental thing, but I think the same goes for catching the metatarsus on the elbow. Its more a matter of an unhappy turn of chance rather than an inferiority in the technique.

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Yeah, anxiety can be a big problem, especially with the clinch. The best thing to do is learn some clinch techniques, learn some ground techniques and some takedown defense to build confidence in that area.
Right. I have been thinking along those same lines for some time now. I just have work on some new techniques and keep developing those I have and hopefully with some added techniques comes added confidence in my abilities inside.
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:38 PM   #280 (permalink)
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Yeah, I think it might have been an incidental thing, but I think the same goes for catching the metatarsus on the elbow. Its more a matter of an unhappy turn of chance rather than an inferiority in the technique.
The difference, I think, is the regularity of the injury. I see injured metatarsals all the time, but very rarely an injured shin.
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