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Old 09-12-2007, 04:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wukkadb
How do your biceps or triceps have anything to do with striking? How are abs/obliques superficial? How do your biceps deal with grappling?
For one thing, I've been training Muay Thai/Kickboxing for a cpl of years and haven't been doing much lifting in the meantime.. and Biceps/Triceps/Shoulders are the muscles that I've really seen a huge difference in, so I must be using them. Besides, have you trained boxing? As you read this, try throwing a straight right in slo-mo.. and feel what muscle is feeling pressure, i can bet it's the biceps/triceps, just as much if not more than the shoulders. Unless you have no idea what you're doing. Even a hook draws it's power from biceps/shoulder.

As far as the abs/obliques go, why don't you enlighten me as to their usefulness in MMA? I can kinda see them of being use when you're in the guard, and you're trying to maneuver a guy around in it, but that's still more legs strength than anything else.

And in grappling, specially for wrestling takedowns and armbars, biceps are real important among other things. In a single leg takedown you're using your biceps to keep the leg locked in while you push with your back and legs. In an armbar, you're using primarily your biceps to pull a guy's arm towards yourself and hyperextend it.. and the guy trying to escape is also using his bicep to try and pull the opposite way. Like Franklin/Okami rd 3.

Last edited by Liddellianenko : 09-12-2007 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
For one thing, I've been training Muay Thai/Kickboxing for a cpl of years and haven't been doing much lifting in the meantime.. and Biceps/Triceps/Shoulders are the muscles that I've really seen a huge difference in, so I must be using them. Besides, have you trained boxing? As you read this, try throwing a straight right in slo-mo.. and feel what muscle is feeling pressure, i can bet it's the biceps/triceps, just as much if not more than the shoulders. Unless you have no idea what you're doing. Even a hook draws it's power from biceps/shoulder.

As far as the abs/obliques go, why don't you enlighten me as to their usefulness in MMA? I can kinda see them of being use when you're in the guard, and you're trying to maneuver a guy around in it, but that's still more legs strength than anything else.

And in grappling, specially for wrestling takedowns and armbars, biceps are real important among other things. In a single leg takedown you're using your biceps to keep the leg locked in while you push with your back and legs. In an armbar, you're using primarily your biceps to pull a guy's arm towards yourself and hyperextend it.. and the guy trying to escape is also using his bicep to try and pull the opposite way. Like Franklin/Okami rd 3.
Lol, you are wrong on all 3 accounts man, sorry to say! I have trained boxing and kicboxing, as well as bjj, and to me it seems like you are the one bluffing here. The major things used in a punch are your hips, core, and a bit of your shoulder. To throw a straight right you rotate your back hip to the left and snap your punch, using very little muscle in your arm, and relying primarily on your hips and rotation. This leads in to the second debate topic, which is abs and oblique. Having a strong core is probably the most important thing in striking/MMA. Without a strong core you will not develop much power, or rotational speed. Obliques also are related to your hip flexors and your hips, which are crucial to a good bjj/grappling game. About biceps and grappling, you are also incorrect. You don't use your biceps for a single leg, you just grab then leg and then use your leg drive to drive into their body, causing them to fall. Having strong biceps make very little difference in takedowns. As far as arm bars go, how do you use your biceps at all? You trap the arm with grip usually, or you can chicken wing(which I suppose uses your biceps a bit) and then you rotate your hips, lock in the arm bar, and RAISE YOUR HIPS to submit him.
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:49 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wukkadb
Lol, you are wrong on all 3 accounts man, sorry to say! I have trained boxing and kicboxing, as well as bjj, and to me it seems like you are the one bluffing here. The major things used in a punch are your hips, core, and a bit of your shoulder. To throw a straight right you rotate your back hip to the left and snap your punch, using very little muscle in your arm, and relying primarily on your hips and rotation. This leads in to the second debate topic, which is abs and oblique. Having a strong core is probably the most important thing in striking/MMA. Without a strong core you will not develop much power, or rotational speed. Obliques also are related to your hip flexors and your hips, which are crucial to a good bjj/grappling game. About biceps and grappling, you are also incorrect. You don't use your biceps for a single leg, you just grab then leg and then use your leg drive to drive into their body, causing them to fall. Having strong biceps make very little difference in takedowns. As far as arm bars go, how do you use your biceps at all? You trap the arm with grip usually, or you can chicken wing(which I suppose uses your biceps a bit) and then you rotate your hips, lock in the arm bar, and RAISE YOUR HIPS to submit him.
Lol, First of all, I'm not bluffing, here's where I train:

Cutting Edge Martial Arts Jeet Kune Do Kali Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do Grappling Martial Arts Knife stick eskrima Classes

I know it's not proof, but whatever, I don't know if your training involves any more than YouTube instructional videos and hitting a heavy bag by yourself either. And I've been training wrestling/BJJ as well, although I didn't do wrestling in HS or anything so I wouldn't qualify as an expert.

As far as your points go, yes, boxing uses your core strength and rotation quite a bit. In fact, proper boxing technique for a straight right relies on pivoting your leg with the strike to put your hips into it. But you STILL snap your arm, and you STILL pressure with your biceps, getting a good extra chunk of power into it.. if you throw with JUST the hips and core, your arm would just flail out there like a sock. Try it. Now look at any good boxer.. and I mean ANY.. and tell me what their biceps look like. That's what I thought.

I suppose I can concede the abs point now that you mention it.. I never figured that the strength for the rotation would come from your abs/core, but sounds obvious now that I think of it. The rotation would still be more obliques than abs though. Fck it, just work out every muscle then I guess, they all help somewhere.

For the armbar example, yes, you pull back with your body and raise the hips once the armbar is locked in, but at that point strength doesn't matter anyway.. the guy's basically fukd. It's in getting to that point that your biceps come into play.. you're usually pulling it away from the guy to break it free before you can circle and lock it. And for a chickenwing/paintbrush, what muscle are you pushing with if not your bicep/tricep?

And the single leg might not have been the best example.. I always figured the guy would ground his leg down if you didn't have enough lifting strength with your bicep, but I suppose it doesn't take too much against an off the balance opponent. Then again, wrestling's not my forte. I stick with the striking points though.

Last edited by Liddellianenko : 09-12-2007 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Wow, thanks for the extremely helpful and informative responses guys. I appreciate you all taking time out of your days to help a nutritional n00b out
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