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Old 04-15-2012, 01:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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The 205 Division

Needed to make a new thread to continue the discussion going on in the Helwani rankings thread that apparently had to be close for whatever reason when there was decent discussion happening in the last few posts.

But to Copters point that 205 isn't very good.

Why are you comparing Brad Pickett with Tito Ortiz? Pickett is ranked like 6th or 7th in the BW division. Tito is not ranked top 10. So that comparison makes no sense. It would be Pickett compared to Phil Davis or Ryan Bader in the 205 division.

We have a 21 year old kid who has beat no one really in Mike McDonald ranked 5th BW on MMAWEEKLY. So not sure how 205 offers guys who haven't beat anyone.

Point is, 205 division is down for sure. But it is still better than 135 and 145. I give those divisions a pass because they are new to the UFC. And they are getting more talented each month. But they are still below the 205 division.

We have Dustin Poirier or Hioki getting title shots at 145 lbs. Hell the Korean Zombie is in the mix as well. These guys do not compare to Machida, Shogun, or Evans in teh 205 division.

People act like Machida, Shogun, and Rampage are on such a decline. No they just all beat eachother because they are all capable of winning.

At 145 we have had Chad Mendes get KO'd in the 1st. We had Kenny Florian come down from 155 to get a gift shot...and he isn't even fighting anymore.

At 135 we are about to see the 3rd match between Faber and Cruz...because there is no one else besides Barao.

I can't see how anyone can put those divisions above 205. Not yet anyway. Their chalengers aren't challengers. They are having a hard time even creating challengers. They had to give Poirier a straight can last time out just to get him a fight.

HONESTLY the 145 division is getting watered down by mediocre 155ers who are trying to save their careers. I do like Charles Oliveria though!

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Old 04-15-2012, 01:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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205 is still the most talent stacked division in MMA, Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, and Machida are still elite, Rampage still has a ton of talent but he's done mentally, Bader and Gustaffson are talented too and if Davis can improve his striking he's gonna be good too. No other division has that many former Champs and amount of talent.

The problem is while they're elite Jones is a notch above elite. 145 has Aldo but not really much else outside of Hioki everyone's on the same level and Hioki is a notch below Aldo, Barao should be fighting Cruz but Ass Chin has to be given a title shot every other fight despite the fact he was owned by MTB, owned by Aldo, and owned by Cruz. 135 isn't that bad, Cruz has just kicked everyone's ass already except Barao's. 145 is awful though.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't think Dustin Poirer is getting a title shot at at all.

As far as Hioki goes, this dude has over 30 fights at multiple weight classes and has been a PRIDE veteran himself(even if it was only one fight) as well as being a Shooto vet. More importantly he's 28 years old and in his prime and not past it like Shogun and Rampage.

Rashad is definitely one of the better P4P fighters in the sport, but the point is 3 or 4 fighters don't make a good division.

135 just lot a lot of guys to the new division, and in spite of that, I would have Michael McDonald 9th at best....most are overrating him because of his potential...but he's really not much different than Gustaffson at LHW. I wouldn't have Pickett anywhere near my top 10...I'd have him maybe top 15....hence a mid level guy.

Cruz, Bibiano, Faber, Barao, Bowles, Torres, Dantas, Jorgensen and MacDonald all deserve to be higher than him...then there's more arguable guys even after that..

And with Chad Mendes getting knocked out...that really doesnt mean anything.....Machida got owned in the 2nd and Rampage was made to look like a tomato can(and that's not far from the truth at this point)

Again with 35 I think there's a clear line of challengers, Faber is a big fight everyone wants to see and is fairly even...you have Barao on deck and outside of that the trouble is more or less that guys like Bibiano and Dantas are inked elsewhere, but that doesn't speak to the division but rather the organization itself.

I also, however, think it speaks to something else entirely when you have a division full of talented guys in Bellator like Dantas, Makovsky(who probably would contend for a UFC title at Flyweight) Villa, etc....and guys in Dream as well like Saadulaev, Marquez, Bibiano.....when you look at the guys outside of the UFC? You get shit like Sokoudjou vs Minow or Christian M'Pumbu vs Travis Wiuff....it's quite disgraceful.

Like I said, the problem with BW is there isn't that many BW fights across the world yet....but it's growing rapidly. And the other problem with the UFC is that these are two divisions that have historically been dominated by the Japanese or smaller show circuits because the UFC didn't have them, so the UFC still has to scavenge the talent that's out there. The LHW division has no such excuse....the UFC HAS the best LHWs in the world....most of them just suck.



As far as 145 goes, that division is getting better every month it seems, the problem is it still is rather weak at the top, but you could literally take the 40th FW in the world and the 50th and it would be a quality UFC prelim fight. Something like say Mike Brown vs Jim Hettes.

At LHW? That'd be something like Houston Alexander or Gilbert Yvel vs Steve Bosse the ******* hockey enforcer.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLyotoLegion View Post
205 is still the most talent stacked division in MMA, Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, and Machida are still elite, Rampage still has a ton of talent but he's done mentally, Bader and Gustaffson are talented too and if Davis can improve his striking he's gonna be good too. No other division has that many former Champs and amount of talent.

The problem is while they're elite Jones is a notch above elite. 145 has Aldo but not really much else outside of Hioki everyone's on the same level and Hioki is a notch below Aldo, Barao should be fighting Cruz but Ass Chin has to be given a title shot every other fight despite the fact he was owned by MTB, owned by Aldo, and owned by Cruz. 135 isn't that bad, Cruz has just kicked everyone's ass already except Barao's. 145 is awful though.
I don't exactly agree. I think 205 definatlty still has the biggest names. And they have the most recognizable fighters.

The division definatly isn't deep. But I think the top is still very good. Machida, Shogun, and Evans have world class skills that guys like Poirier, Hioki, Korean Zombie, and Brad Pickett don't have. Hioki is like the 2nd ranked FW his bread and butter is his grappling....and he couldn't even sub George Roop after several minutes of grappling. He did do well vs. Bart....but why is Bart P. all of a sudden a real good fighter? Seems like those divisions you basically have to create contenders. Mendes was a wrestler who was undefeated....yet he got KO'd in 1 round. Mark Hominick fought for the belt...then turned around and was KOd by the Korean Zombie.

205 Division:

1. Bones (elite champ)
2. Evans (a guy with 1 loss and several good wins)
3. Hendo (just beat Shogun and beat Fedor, one of the best of all time and still looking good)
4. Shogun (a legend, a handful for anyone in the division besides Bones)
5. Gustaf (easily beat Thiago Silva. Has really easily beat everyone besides Phil Davis. Obvious striking talent with improvement everywhere else. Still getting better)
6. Machida (still dangerous for anyone. still one of the trickiest styles to fight against. World class accuracy and escapability.
7. Bader (not a huge fan, but just beat Rampage, and only has 2 losses. Huge power, good wrestling)
8. Phil Davis (raw still, great wrestling talent)
9. Mousasi (has talent, would like to see him vs. better fighters)
10. Rampage (pretty much done. But it is still crazy to have a guy like Page ranked all the way down to 10th. Still better than any guy 135 or 145 wanted to put as their 10th best fighter)
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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And Shogun is supposed to be this world class Muay Thai fighter but got kneed in the face and beaten to a bloody pulp by a wrestler who has been striking for less than 5 years.

He then proceeded to get nearly knocked out several times and beaten standing by a 40 year old Greco Roman one trick pony with only a right hand.

Machida was also nearly knocked out by said 24 year old wrestler and was outstruck for 2 rounds by an old man who hasn't cared about fighting for about 4 years now and only throws the same basic combinations to the point where he was a late left hook away from losing to Keith freaking Jardine.

Oh, and Dan Henderson was outwrestled for 25 minutes by a 170lber, and got outwrestled and beat up on by Shogun who is a striker....some Olympic wrestler.

See I can do it too!!



Also, I fail to see how guys like Bart P are any worse than guys like Vladamir Matyushenko....Bart is well rounded and tough and doesn't fall to the ground when you jab him in the face.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roflcopter View Post
I don't think Dustin Poirer is getting a title shot at at all.

As far as Hioki goes, this dude has over 30 fights at multiple weight classes and has been a PRIDE veteran himself(even if it was only one fight) as well as being a Shooto vet. More importantly he's 28 years old and in his prime and not past it like Shogun and Rampage.

Rashad is definitely one of the better P4P fighters in the sport, but the point is 3 or 4 fighters don't make a good division.

135 just lot a lot of guys to the new division, and in spite of that, I would have Michael McDonald 9th at best....most are overrating him because of his potential...but he's really not much different than Gustaffson at LHW. I wouldn't have Pickett anywhere near my top 10...I'd have him maybe top 15....hence a mid level guy.

Cruz, Bibiano, Faber, Barao, Bowles, Torres, Dantas, Jorgensen and MacDonald all deserve to be higher than him...then there's more arguable guys even after that..

And with Chad Mendes getting knocked out...that really doesnt mean anything.....Machida got owned in the 2nd and Rampage was made to look like a tomato can(and that's not far from the truth at this point)

Again with 35 I think there's a clear line of challengers, Faber is a big fight everyone wants to see and is fairly even...you have Barao on deck and outside of that the trouble is more or less that guys like Bibiano and Dantas are inked elsewhere, but that doesn't speak to the division but rather the organization itself.

I also, however, think it speaks to something else entirely when you have a division full of talented guys in Bellator like Dantas, Makovsky(who probably would contend for a UFC title at Flyweight) Villa, etc....and guys in Dream as well like Saadulaev, Marquez, Bibiano.....when you look at the guys outside of the UFC? You get shit like Sokoudjou vs Minow or Christian M'Pumbu vs Travis Wiuff....it's quite disgraceful.

Like I said, the problem with BW is there isn't that many BW fights across the world yet....but it's growing rapidly. And the other problem with the UFC is that these are two divisions that have historically been dominated by the Japanese or smaller show circuits because the UFC didn't have them, so the UFC still has to scavenge the talent that's out there. The LHW division has no such excuse....the UFC HAS the best LHWs in the world....most of them just suck.



As far as 145 goes, that division is getting better every month it seems, the problem is it still is rather weak at the top, but you could literally take the 40th FW in the world and the 50th and it would be a quality UFC prelim fight. Something like say Mike Brown vs Jim Hettes.

At LHW? That'd be something like Houston Alexander or Gilbert Yvel vs Steve Bosse the ******* hockey enforcer.
Hioki is one of those mythical Japanese fighters. WAY OVERRATED. He does have a fancy record....but like you brought up before...who has he beat? He looked average as hell vs. George Roop.

You say Mendes getting KO'd doesn't mean much. Because look at Machida. Well the difference is Machida held the title. Shogun held the title and was a PRIDE star. That is a big difference to me. Mendes never got to the top, and is basically a hyped up wrestler....sort of like Phil Davis or Bader....but we don't see Phil Or Bader getting title shots either. Because the top of the division is harder than Mendes' division.

Depth of a division is important to me. But 50th ranked guys? Who really cares about the 50th ranked guys? I mean maybe 25 deep matters. But I don't see the relevance in comparing the 50th best guys. Mike Brown was just champ of the division....and now you are talking about how he is 50th ranked. To me that makes the division look bad....not good.

Look at the divisions.

145:

Faber - Brown - Aldo

Faber had to move to 135 to be relevant. That would be like Machida or Evans going to 185 to get a title shot.

135lbs:

Torres - Bowles - Cruz

Faber was the 145 champ and now is getting 2 title shots in a row at 135. That right there shows how weak it is. The former 145er gets 2 title shots in a row at 135 because tehre is no one else.

To me guy like Bonnar and Lil Nog have skills. Are they fast and flying around like 15th ranked BWs? No...they are 205ers. But they both are very skilled and have done more in their careers than 15th best BWs or FWs.

Just my opinion.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Not really...it makes it look good when clearly shot fighters(such as Mike Brown) actually deteriorate back to the mid-level rather than hang around for years in completely shambolic "top 10" or "legends" matches like Rampage and Forrest.

I wouldnt even be surprised if Ryan freaking Jimmo beat either....and he's not even that good.

A mid level FW will certainly knock you off your porch much faster because a lof of these dudes can actually fight and aren't guys like Matt Hammill or Brandon Vera.


I also fail to see how a champion moving down in weight, winning some fights and then getting a shot indicates a weak division...especially considering he might actually be better suited for 135.

That's like saying 205 is weak because a former MW got his ass handed to him by a former WW and then moved up and became a top 3 LHW.



Oh, and Bart P has over 50 fights and hasn't been submitted in 5 years since another BJJ black belt(second degree now) broke his arm. Not exactly an easy guy to submit even for an ace like Hioki.

As for the Roop fight, his first fight outside of Japan and in the UFC.....and not to mention it's very asinine to bring up one poor performance when defending 205.

I mean we are talking about

Shogun Rua....the literal king of abysmal showings.

Rampage, the guy who has looked awful for about a half decade now.

Machida who lost to Rampage...somehow......

Dan Henderson who lost to Jake Shields in embarrassing fashion despite being a ridiculously large favourite.

and Rashad, who most people thought sucked after his back to back fights against Thiago Silva and Rampage when he almost got knocked out in both fights. Not to mention his last fight wasn't particularly inspiring either against a clearly overmatched opponent.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The 205 division is in terrible shape just look at the ages of the fighters in the division

Ortiz 37
Evans 32
Griffin 32
Vera 34
Bonnar 35
Machida 33
Jackson 33
Matyushenko 41
Jones 24
Bader 28
Soszyński 34
Silva 29
Henderson 41
Shogun 30
Gustafsson 25
Davis 27
Kingsbury 30
Perosh 39
Pokrajac 33
Diabate 38
Nogueira 35
Te Huna 30
Rosa 28
Maldonado 32
Penner 32
Jimmo 30
Kruth 37
Teixeira 32
Nedkov 30
Deblass 29

If a fighters prime is 28-32, which is the common line of thinking than UFC has 14 fighters in their prime, 13 fighters out of their prime and 3 fighters going into their prime.

Now speaking of the 145 division while it isn't a great division by any means, it's a young division with guys like Poirer, Hettes, Koch, Brookins, Pearson, Hioki, Pineda. They've run TUF seasons that bring in talent, Siler, Bermundez, Brandao and Brimage where very exciting prospects. And you do have a 155 division that is trickling down to the 145 division that are decent. You don't have that same movement from the HW to LHW (and some would say this is what the UFC is banking on.)

As for BW/FW obviously those divisions aren't impressive but should they be? And more importantly has the 205 division sunk so low that the cry of honor is we're better than 125 and 135lbers?

Every year for the past three years I think UFC 205 has taken a hit, now I think it's the 4th best, next year it will be 5th year after that I could see it fall to 6th.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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And that doesn't even speak to probably another reason I'm biased towards 145 and 135...the prospect scene. For both 45 and 35 they are exceptionally bright.....45 in particular having studs like Palmer, Bubba Jenkins and now another national champion wrestler I feel terrible because I forgot his name atm but he's now fighting.....but obviously your other prospects like Joey Gambino...Charles Oliveira is still around, I believe Maximo Blanco just made the drop...etc.


LHW really has no such promising future outside of an extremely rare few dudes like Meisha Cirkunov...the rest look incredible average...I mean it's pretty alarming when Tom Deblass was lauded as one of the best American prospects on the scene and the dude's a 29 year old 5'11 BJJ stylist with only 2 years of MMA pro experience...and just got styled on by literal Cyrille Diabate....


EDIT: Darrion Caldwell.


The reason I'm calling 205 the worst in the sport is because I think it is inevitable that the 145 and 135 divisions settle in and the cream start separating from the crop.....there's so much obvious talent there and a lot of depth with so many guys dropping as well as dudes coming up from the regional scene and from places like Brazil and Japan. Those divisions have big futures, the 205 has almost no future....145 could survive losing Aldo with the amount of young talents they have....at 205 if Jones leaves you'll probably have another half decade of champion musical chairs between a bunch of old guys on TRT.

And yes, I think it's worse than HW. And MW has eclipsed LHW in depth because all the good midlevel guys at 205 dropped to MW(Stann, Boetsch, Franklin, Wanderlei etc).
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