Doctor says Chael Sonnen's hypogonadism is caused by past steroid use - Page 7 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:05 AM   #61 (permalink)
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This is interesting, I can see both points of view.

I think Chael Sonnen is entertaining, the guy always fights wars and he's made me a fan because of that. I'm also not the biggest fan of Anderson Silva (ever since his antics vs Leites in the ring).
However, this is a sport where people measure their skills and strength with each other. If someone has a physical deficiency so they need help to perform at a competitive level, that's a problem. Now they are taking an 'unnatural' supplement to compete at a level they would be competing at without said deficiency. So, if they can take it, the other fighter should be allowed to take it as well, even terms if you will.
An analogy might help.
Say you are running a marathon and you're winning. The guy behind you jumps on a bike for a few miles just to catch up to you and then start running again. It's a close finish where either could have won. However, how did you both get to the finish? Well, he had to use a bike because he couldn't keep up without it. Not really fair imo.

If you can't compete at the highest level anymore that might be a sign your body is telling you to slow down a bit because it can't keep repairing itself at the rate that's needed to perform at that level.

I understand that they aren't doing anything illegal according to the rules, but if you apply common sense, you can see there is a problem.

These are just my opinions on the matter, nothing in here is stated as fact!
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:50 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oordeel View Post
This is interesting, I can see both points of view.

I think Chael Sonnen is entertaining, the guy always fights wars and he's made me a fan because of that. I'm also not the biggest fan of Anderson Silva (ever since his antics vs Leites in the ring).
However, this is a sport where people measure their skills and strength with each other. If someone has a physical deficiency so they need help to perform at a competitive level, that's a problem. Now they are taking an 'unnatural' supplement to compete at a level they would be competing at without said deficiency. So, if they can take it, the other fighter should be allowed to take it as well, even terms if you will.
An analogy might help.
Say you are running a marathon and you're winning. The guy behind you jumps on a bike for a few miles just to catch up to you and then start running again. It's a close finish where either could have won. However, how did you both get to the finish? Well, he had to use a bike because he couldn't keep up without it. Not really fair imo.

If you can't compete at the highest level anymore that might be a sign your body is telling you to slow down a bit because it can't keep repairing itself at the rate that's needed to perform at that level.

I understand that they aren't doing anything illegal according to the rules, but if you apply common sense, you can see there is a problem.

These are just my opinions on the matter, nothing in here is stated as fact!
i agree 100%, its like a weaker man is given a boost in stats just becuz he is not upto par with the other guys, well if your that weak then gtfo out of MMA you dont belong their, or use skills to override the athleticism.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:06 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ASKREN4WIN View Post
Well, he took his information in front of the commission and they were convinced it was legit. Im sure they know a lot more information about the situation than you.
The NSAC Dr. who approved it is an orthopedic surgeon. Just like Dr. Benjamin. Neither should really be talking about hypogonadism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadmanshand View Post
As for the rest I actually watched the NSAC meeting with Chael and his doctor where he received his TUE for this fight and everything I said is true. His doctor did say that he may have secondary hypogonadism and that a treatment for it is TRT but nowhere did he show any test results - or even imply that he had test results - showing him to have that condition or low testosterone. Basically he gave absolutely no proof whatsoever that Chael needs TRT.

Let's do some math.

Known liar and cheat (Chael) + doctor previously censored for prescribing unneeded meds (his doctor) = Legitimate treatment?

See how the math fails there? Is there any reason at this point to believe he needs it? Both men involved are known liars and cheats in their fields. Multiple fields in Chael's case. Both men are unrepentant. So where is the credibility? Why should I - why should anyone - actually believe he needs TRT?
Not that I don't believe you, but I'm going to have to ask you to provide a source about the Dr. being censured in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
Yeah, Kizer said Chael was a liar. And now he is offering him an advisory position. Have you considered that Kizer is just kind a corrupt guy?
If I remember correctly, it wasn't Kizer who asked Chael about that, it was a commissioner. Also, Kizer doesn't even get a vote at these meetings. His job as executive director is to run this stuff on a day to day basis. The commissioners are politically appointed people who all have other full time jobs, like lawyers or hotel/casino CEOs. I'd actually trust Kizer much more to make a decision than those people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
Lol holy shit. That must be the worst doctor alive. Sounds to me like he cares about getting attention more then behaving like a real doc.
We might have disagreed about everything ever involving Chael Sonnen, ever. But you're pretty much right about this. This man knows nothing about this situation at all, and as such shouldn't be commenting in the guise of an expert.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
You don't need to be an endocrinologist to understand the basics of how hormones affect the human body. You think he spent all 8 years learning about the spine? Cmon man.
From reading his opinions, yes, it seems like he did spend all 8 years learning about the spine. Some stuff I've said about the good Doctor's statements in the past:

Quote:
An interview where he claims a T:E ratio of 2:1 is impossible without exogenous steroids, and tests have higher thresholds to aid and abet cheating:

http://radio.thescore.com/episodes/the-mma-show-apr-5

Starts at about 30:00 and the statement about T:E ratios is at about 36:00. He later corrects himself in this article http://mmajunkie.com/news/28128/medi...stosterone.mma

But he still makes mistakes there. He's once again made an incorrect claim about T:E ratios and he's oversimplified the half-life of testosterone. He did it twice in the same article.

Quote:
(Very, very rarely, some people are just freakishly high, but they have a ratio of less than 6:1).

...

The half-life of injectable T is only eight days. So every eight days, half of the T you took is washed out of your blood. Therefore, if a cheater knows when he is likely to be tested (i.e. post-fight), he doesn't need to be a genius to know when to stop taking ("cycle off") to test lower than 6:1 or 4:1. Twenty-four days is three half-lives, and virtually none of the extra T is left in your system to get you busted.

(UPDATED on April 6, 2012, at 7:30 a.m. ET. The half-life of testosterone is eight days, not hours as originally stated. We apologize for this error.)
First, there are people who have freakishly high T:E ratios who are above 6:1.

Also, neither of those half life statements are always correct, but they're each stated as fact. There are several different types of injectable synthetic testosterone, and they have different half lives.

In this interview he talks about TRT being used to get hypogonadal boys and adult men to a 1:1 T:E ratio:

http://radio.thescore.com/episodes/the-mma-show-apr-16

The part I'm referring to starts at about 36:30.

In short, this guy doesn't know anything about this subject at all. Nobody should ever interview him or ask his opinion about this or use him as a source on this topic.

All that being said, of course Chael Sonnen is lying. You don't need subject matter expertise to form that opinion. Logic for first graders would do.
In the space of two days, he said:

A 2:1 T:E ratio was impossible without steroids, when it's not even that uncommon.

Corrects himself, but still says a 6:1 is impossible without steroids, when it's very rare, but still possible. (e.g. Some rare cases of physiologically high TG/EG ratios (between 6 and 12) are encountered; these may be attributed to a dysregulation of the testicular secretions of epitestosterone which is decreased, and of epitestosterone sulphate (ES) which is normal or increased.)

The half life of injectible testosterone is 8 hours.

Corrects himself and says 8 days, but is of course wrong again because there's no way of knowing without knowing what kind of testosterone it is, and of course it's different from person to person.

That's four moronic statements that show he doesn't even have basic knowledge of synthetic testosterone. A couple weeks later, he says TRT brings the T:E ratio to 1:1... showing he has no knowledge of TRT or what urinary T:E ratios actually represent. Now he says, "Hypogonadism means that the testes did not produce enough testosterone for one to normally mature." which shows he has very limited knowledge of hypogonadism. You can have matured normally and later develop hypogonadism...

I'm sure he's a kick ass spinal surgeon, but he seriously needs to not talk about this subject. Because he's spreading information under the guise of an authority, and it's facepalm worthy.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:21 AM   #64 (permalink)
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The thing you have to know about doctors is that they are basically all useless outside of their specialized field and a GP is completely useless. Intelligent people generally don't become doctors it is mostly rich kids and people who want to make a lot of money but are too dumb to do it with their own intellect and skill.
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