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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Joe Rogan hits out at Dr. Johnny Benjamin

Bloodyelbow did a good interview with Jope Rogan. During it he talks about MMAJunkies 'ask the fight doc' dr. Johnny Benjamin, who has recently accused both Frank Mir & Chael Sonnen that their TRT use is due to past steroid abuse. Full interview is here:

Stephie Daniels: I saw you posting in the UG on a thread related to an interview I did with Dr. Johnny Benjamin, so I've got to ask, what's your take on TRT usage in MMA?

Joe Rogan: Well, it's a tricky thing. First of all, the reason why I started talking about it in The Underground (forum), was because I was very upset with that doctor. He was talking about one possible reason why Frank Mir would need hormone replacement therapy at 33 years of age, and I thought that was very irresponsible. He's claiming that the only reason why Frank would need it, is if he abused steroids. That's not current at all, as far as research and why your body stops producing testosterone or produces it at a degraded level.

Head trauma is very much in the news and it's been talked about in many medical journals, and there are many studies on it that show a direct correlation between traumatic brain injury, or head trauma and your body's inability to produce testosterone. Anybody that knows anything about MMA, knows that Frank Mir has taken some f**king serious head trauma. Just the Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar fights alone...think about the amount of times he got hit by Brock Lesnar in that fight. Full blast with those giant fists. Shane Carwin put him to sleep. Think about the fights that he's had that people forgot about, like Brandon Vera knocking him out or Pe de Pano beating him up. You don't even think about those fights. Not only that, he got hit by a f**king car, and launched through the air. I'm sure that's not too great for your brain either. He got hit by a car! Jesus Christ.

Why did this doctor stay that Frank Mir probably took steroids? I'll tell you why, because that's the sensational thing to say. That's the inflammatory thing to say. That's the thing that everybody wants to point at. They want to say, 'Ah, you need testosterone because you've done steroids', which it's true, that can be a cause. That can be a reason for why your body stops producing testosterone, but to say that is the cause, when there's a real clear case of absolute truth that you have that another cause of low testosterone which is prevalent throughout this guy's life...I mean, it's not like he was getting knocked out in private. He got knocked out on television in front of the whole world over and over again. That doesn't even count all the punishment he's taken in training. How many times has he been head kicked in training? How many times has he been dropped on his head in training? A f**king lot.

He's a world champion. He's training with some of the toughest f**king guys on the planet. That's gonna happen all day. You get in shape for the fight that he just had with Junior dos Santos, you're going through f**king war. For this doctor to step in and say that that's the reason, or imply that it is, that is really irresponsible. That's what I think about him.

There's a lot of doctors that want to be famous, and I don't necessarily think that it's a good thing. I think that's kind of gross. I think that you're either a doctor or you're an entertainer, and when you try to be a doctor-slash-entertainer, I just feel like you're slipping. I feel like something is going on here. I think he's trying to promote his agenda more than he's trying to spread medicine. That statement about Frank Mir, and implying that all these guys that take testosterone are taking it because they abused their bodies through steroids, that's really irresponsible, and that's not the kind of sh*t I would want to hear from my doctor.



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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 10:20 AM
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Rogan is absolutely right. Sure there are probably a few guys in MMA who need TRT because of past steriod abuse, but there are so many reasons guys stop producing or are only partly producing the amount of testosterone they should be that to call all of the TRT guys past steroid abusers is ridiculous.
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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 10:30 AM
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As far as I'm concerned guys like Mir and Dan Henderson have done nothing wrong, Mir's levels were 1:1 and Hendo has never been over the legal limits like Chael or Overeem.

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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 11:18 AM
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And that is what I call a verbal TKO.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 11:25 AM
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Welcome to America. The place where sensationalism rules and opinions are put out as absolute truths. Turn on the TV to any Mainstream Media Outlet. Visit just about any website. People eat the shit up! Why should MMA be any different.
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 11:30 AM
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I just want to add something;

Theres only one point in Mir's career where I thought he might be on roids. After the second Lesnar fight, Mir got massive. He wasn't a small dude before but he looked as though he packed on 30 lbs of muscle. I think this was also the first time Mir being on roids was ever mentioned on this forum. Lets just assume he decided to use steroids for all that muscle. In that timespan, it is simply impossible for him to do enough to completely damage his natural testosterone production to the point of needing therapy. Steroids are extremely less dangerous to the permanent system than most people think. These guys would have to be career users and abusers to destroy their system to that extent. In Mir's case....I just don't see that as an option.

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 11:33 AM
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So, the reason Frank Mir might need TRT is because hes suffered too much head trauma. He now needs TRT so he can traumatise his head some more.
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
So, the reason Frank Mir might need TRT is because hes suffered too much head trauma. He now needs TRT so he can traumatise his head some more.
Not sure how you mean that exactly?

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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 11:40 AM
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Ok, I was there in the UG thread in question, posting and responding with Joe. I saw what Joe actually said at the time and in context and here's my take. Joe is blowing this thing about Mir out of proportion. Here is what went down with Dr Benjamin specifically regarding Mir:

"Stephie Daniels: Guys that are older, that take TRT to compete on a younger level, Frank Mir is only 33. Is he really old enough to require TRT naturally?

Dr. Benjamin: Let's be honest here. How many people who never wrecked their bodies with past steroid use, naturally need TRT at 33? Less than one or two percent."
All he's saying here is that the likelihood of necessity is lass than 1 in 50 or 1 in 100. That's it. He makes some comments toward the end of Part 1 that were obviously generalizations about why guys in MMA are getting TUE's, but says nothing specifically about Mir there. Almost all of Benjamin's comments on roids with any specificity were directed at Chael Sonnen:

"Stephie Daniels: What about a case like Chael Sonnen's, where he has stated that hypogonadism is the root of his need for a TUE?

Dr. Benjamin: Was Chael Sonnen a big time collegiate wrestler? Yes he was. I'm going to opine and say to you, there's no way in the world you get to the level of collegiate wrestling that Chael Sonnen was at, with hypogonadism. Let me explain to you why. Hypogonadism means that the testes did not produce enough testosterone for one to normally mature. He wasn't on TRT as a teenager. He became this big, muscled up monster and NCAA wrestler with hypogonadism? Hell no.

The truth of the matter is, you could never get to that level, because you're not going to have the muscle mass and strength to get you there. They're going to run you over. Your body will not allow you to develop enough muscle and strength to compete at your size. If he has hypogonadism, it's from one thing, and one thing only, because he treated himself with steroids in the past, and wrecked his testes. That's it.

Stephie Daniels:
Once incurred, is that condition a permanent one?

Dr. Benjamin: That's the thing that people don't appreciate. If you use steroids, it can harm your testes in a fashion that's permanent. When these guys use steroids to compete, guess what? They're more than likely going to need steroids for the rest of their lives just to be normal, because now they've destroyed or significantly injured their hormone producing glands, your testes, and they're never going to work correctly again."

Notice how almost all of Dr Benjamin's comments are about Chael, but Joe doesn't defend Chael? Instead latches onto the handful of words about the probability in Mir's case. That's because a) Joe knows Chael roided himself to no-gonad-ness and b) Joe doesn't like Johnny Benjamin because of his comments over racism in MMA in the past (in fact that was Joe's first post in the UG thread in question- not about head trauma or Mir or roids... about Dr Benjamin's article on racism... if you look at the thread it's totally out of left field). I am a huge Rogan fan but in this case Rogan is being disingenuous. He makes some good points about head trauma but making it personal about Dr Benjamin's motives is silly. Johnny Benjamin is basically correct. In fact in the original thread, Joe actually says he agrees that Chael probably could not have competed at the level of collegiate wrestling he did if he had been suffering from hypogonadism as he claims he was.

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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 06-15-2012, 04:04 PM
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Dr. Benjamin: Let's be honest here. How many people who never wrecked their bodies with past steroid use, naturally need TRT at 33? Less than one or two percent."
IIRC, the theory behind TRT is having the same testosterone levels at age 33 a person did at 21.

AFAIK, its considered natural for a person's levels to decrease over time as they age. Its not necessarily a result of injury but rather a natural part of the aging process.

It doesn't make sense for Benjamin to say Mir takes TRT due to injury when it could be due to Mir getting older & not having the same testosterone levels he did when he was younger.

Dr. Benjamin: Hypogonadism means that the testes did not produce enough testosterone for one to normally mature.
I honestly don't know.

Mike Tyson used to have a girly voice...

I wouldn't necessarily attribute it to steroid abuse / hypogonadism.

Considering this "doctor" looks like hes trying to smear Frank Mir, I would guess he's doing the same to Chael.

I would think someone who didn't normally mature through puberty wouldn't have facial or chest hair.

I could have sworn that I've seen Chael with face stubble.

A quick search reveals hypogonadism has causes other than steroid abuse & that it can occur after puberty and late in life.

It may be a question of whether or not he has evidence for the things he's saying.

Can he prove Chael had hypogonadism when he wrestled in college? Chael wasn't diagnosed with it until 2008, if I remember right.

It is possible that Chael contracted it later in life...

Last edited by Trix; 06-15-2012 at 04:09 PM.
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