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View Poll Results: Who is more technically evolved as a fighter

2012 JDS 16 59.26%
Or Prime Fedor 8 29.63%
2012 Jon Jones 19 70.37%
Or Prime Shogun 3 11.11%
2012 GSP 23 85.19%
Or Prime Mat Hughes 1 3.70%
2012 Bendo 8 29.63%
Or Prime BJPenn 14 51.85%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-15-2012, 07:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Simple concept. im looking at the greats of today and the greats of yesterday.

what i want is specifically how todays guys are more evolved.

JDS v Prime Fedor
how is jds more evolved? Fedor was training a natural and therefore harmonious MMA since single digits. along with national level judo.

Jones v Prime Shogun
shogun has superior stand up and jitz. jones has wrestling, which is ufc friendly and of course can be argued to have been efficient whatever the context. is he really more evolved or just longer and more effective in a cage?

MW is obviously not a rich division
Il give you that Silva is the only serious guy i can think of so il leave it out.

GSP v Prime Hughes
GSP is basically just a better fighter.

Bendo v Prime BJPenn
BJPenn has better stand up and BJJ.

How exactly, fighter by fighter are the new guys more evolved?

it seems like there are three arts and you can be as well rounded as possible before you retire or leave your prime.

the evolution theory is kind of turning into an evolution into point fighting and gamesmanship, rather than some kind of great leap in fighting itself.

please explain how 2012 JDS is more evolved than Prime Fedor. or 2012 Bendo is more evolved than Prime BJPenn.

Evolution is no myth, but in "combat sports" as oppose to real fighting, it would seem the only real evolutions that happen are tailoring game towards rules. The efficiency of execution branch veered off into gamesmanship over night the minute the rules came in, and headbutts was replaced with gnp and guys on one knee found they had magically aquirred a kick in the head shield. Point fighting is an evolution of mma. it sure dont mean shit in the real world, and is akin to bruce lees "mess of tradition" that the original seed of mma was meant to sweep away.

well i thought it was a good point anyways...

poll is split. most people seem to think bjpenn is more evolved. gsp of course is more evolved. shogun/jones is split. and fedor/jds is split.

what i really want is people to dissect exactly how they think the top fighters are more evolved.

people say it enough.


i agree that the general standard may be higher. but really? was brock more evolved than nog? is jds more evolved than k1 cro cop?

was frankie edgar really a more evolved fighter than bjpenn. or just a more evolved sportsman?

Last edited by HitOrGetHit : 06-16-2012 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Double Post
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Regarding JDS/Fedor I just don't know. JDS is more athletic, which indicates an evolution of the sport as a whole, not necessarily individual fighters. I don't feel I can judge Junior's entire array of skills, either, since he's so good at keeping the fight standing and ending it there.

But, Fedor was fairly unique in his prime, you can't draw conclusions about the sport at the time based on him.

Jones/Shogun is not even close. Jones is a far superior athlete, a far more complete fighter, and has a rare mental acuity when it comes to taking advantage of a hurt opponent with submissions.

GSP/Hughes - GSP is better at everything, and again, freak athlete.

Bendo/BJ Penn - BJ is a more technical striker and Grappler, and a very underrated wrestler. But you touched on the fact that he's not much cop as a sportsman. He lacks drive and determination, and in a more evolved sport would achieve as much as the Vince Carters of the world do - not much. And MMA is getting there. I think Bendo is more evolved in the sport of MMA. He also has athleticism, size, and Cardio over BJ, and probably wrestling. All of these things are part of the sport.

So in conclusion the sport has evolved to incorporate more physically gifted athletes. It has evolved to incorporate more multifaceted fighters. Soon there will be no more pure strikers or BJJ specialists. And people have figured out that if you want to be a champion, you have to be able to go five rounds.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:00 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sports_Nerd View Post
Regarding JDS/Fedor I just don't know. JDS is more athletic, which indicates an evolution of the sport as a whole, not necessarily individual fighters. I don't feel I can judge Junior's entire array of skills, either, since he's so good at keeping the fight standing and ending it there.

But, Fedor was fairly unique in his prime, you can't draw conclusions about the sport at the time based on him.

Jones/Shogun is not even close. Jones is a far superior athlete, a far more complete fighter, and has a rare mental acuity when it comes to taking advantage of a hurt opponent with submissions.

GSP/Hughes - GSP is better at everything, and again, freak athlete.

Bendo/BJ Penn - BJ is a more technical striker and Grappler, and a very underrated wrestler. But you touched on the fact that he's not much cop as a sportsman. He lacks drive and determination, and in a more evolved sport would achieve as much as the Vince Carters of the world do - not much. And MMA is getting there. I think Bendo is more evolved in the sport of MMA. He also has athleticism, size, and Cardio over BJ, and probably wrestling. All of these things are part of the sport.

So in conclusion the sport has evolved to incorporate more physically gifted athletes. It has evolved to incorporate more multifaceted fighters. Soon there will be no more pure strikers or BJJ specialists. And people have figured out that if you want to be a champion, you have to be able to go five rounds.
this is gonna make sense or it wont. but il take a chance. recently i was discussing football with a friend. and i mean the one you play with your feet. the relevance is this. the more we thought about it, the thing that separated the game from today and yesterday in general was the athletics. in addition i would say strategy and tactical nous. now the reality is that the greats already had athletics. pele was an athlete. even maradona has attributes wrapped up in an unlikely physique. lesser player like matthew le tissier could score goals that would make people jump out of their seats. and where im going with this is that back in the day, people could play. but they couldnt necessarily run as hard and as fast for 90 mins in g-e-n-e-r-a-l.

back in the day you had special players like hoddle who could hit a 50 yard pass on a penny (or a dime if you prefer). then you had beckham who could do the same and run for 90 minutes. he was never the fastest, but athletically he could run a marathon for fun.

these guys stand out for individual skills. it dont mean beckham is a better passer than hoddle. and it dont mean the guys 40 years ago who would never make the premier league today, are worse passers than the ones who do.

even under pressure, some of the mistakes you see in the modern game are ridiculous. just as some of the feats are amazing.

thesedays, you have world class athletes as standard. especially in football, which along with tennis is a really hard sport stamina wise. but you also have guys who cant hit a pass straight and hit 9/10 shots over the cross bar.

in mma fedor for example was a natural mma guy. he wasnt just advanced, he basically trained harmonious mma his whole life. which is why he dominated. american mma is still a bastard combination of basics rather than a martial art.

do american based mma fighters have better basics? i doubt it. they draw on wrestler boxing or mt bjj. they are usually clunky or lean heavy in one area. transitions are getting a lot better but it has taken an age.

where american mma excells is athletics and sporting ethic. it excells in strategy for the wrestler friendly context that the ufc cage and unified rules represent.

it dont mean that guys like bendo are better fighters than guys like bjpenn. where he excells is the athletics and the tactical understanding of his context.

and fedor never gassed. i cant think of one time ever. jds gassed a few times and couldnt put nelson away. arlovski for one tooled nelson and finished him. mmaths, i know, but things dont just evolve in one steady direction. even in nature things dont just evolve that way. my old environmental science teacher used to hammer that one into our brains from the moment he got off his bicycle everyday. they move in a direction supported by their context. occasionally they fit nature to themselves. but the point im trying to make is that newer dont mean better. it means generally more suited to the context, and the all time greats are basically not covered by this.

jds looks great against ok mma strikers and wrestlers with no chin. an atg sambo / national elite judo guy with subs and devastating stand up, not to mention a ridiculously good chin and reactions, gas tank and indominable drive and in fight nous, would be a bad bad day for him.

if shogun and jones were the same size or shogun was younger/less damaged and fighting in pride, there is a good chance he would ruin jones.

bendo looks great against edgar. he would tool the shit out of penn if it went a few rounds. however bjpenn could submit bendo. and he could ktfo him as well. so the fact that bendos defensive bjj is so good or that his stamina is so good, dont really help him necessarily. and his wrestling isnt going to go well against world class tdd. his size isnt going to help him against someone who fought machida...

its a really interesting subject. but i think the greats are good in all areas. and always were more or less. the difference is the shifting gamesmanship with regards to the rules and the progression of competency in the basics and athletics in the general fighter. the more you look at the bigger picture, the more you realise this.

Last edited by lolwut : 06-16-2012 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I really like the idea of context you bring up here as well as the universality.

Even as the human race as a whole, 100 years ago, your lambda average person had abilities (cultural, social, technical) that are completely different than those that we have today. We adapt to our context which is, in my opinion, the basis of evolution and the strength of the human race through the ages.

Pride often makes us forget that we're basically animals, therefore, we react like animals and most of our life, our descisions and everything else will be driven by "educated , adaptive instinct"
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hadoq View Post
I really like the idea of context you bring up here as well as the universality.

Even as the human race as a whole, 100 years ago, your lambda average person had abilities (cultural, social, technical) that are completely different than those that we have today. We adapt to our context which is, in my opinion, the basis of evolution and the strength of the human race through the ages.

Pride often makes us forget that we're basically animals, therefore, we react like animals and most of our life, our descisions and everything else will be driven by "educated , adaptive instinct"
i think pride reminded us all we were basically animals and then ufc tried to make it about wrestling, point fighting and those endless fkn commercials...
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