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Old 06-21-2012, 08:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by M.C View Post
GSP's win streak is 9 fights, of which he has a 70% decision rate. Since he started his title run, he's on an 84% decision rate. That is extraordinarily high for a champion in MMA. Keep in mind, this is against fighters that have been finished by other people, they aren't fighters that are simply too tough to finish - they have been finished, GSP did not do it.

Hughes, on the other hand, during his prime and his championship run, had a 75% finish rate (out of 13 fights no less), pretty much the exact opposite of GSP, including finishing GSP (a young GSP, of course), and easily had the more exciting fights. To put it into perspective, it's the same finish rate Anderson Silva has since he won the title (and the same amount of fights, 13), that's crazy.

I realize that a win is a win, and I have also already acknowledged GSP is the best WW in the sport's history at this point, just pointing this out because I don't want the "gap" between Hughes and GSP to be overrated, yes GSP is the best WW, but it's not by a huge margin, Hughes is damn impressive and has some damn good accomplishments, and a vastly superior finish rate than GSP has, I think that has to be counted for in such a debate.

What he said.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:18 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by M.C View Post
GSP's win streak is 9 fights, of which he has a 70% decision rate. Since he started his title run, he's on an 84% decision rate. That is extraordinarily high for a champion in MMA. Keep in mind, this is against fighters that have been finished by other people, they aren't fighters that are simply too tough to finish - they have been finished, GSP did not do it.

Hughes, on the other hand, during his prime and his championship run, had a 75% finish rate (out of 13 fights no less), pretty much the exact opposite of GSP, including finishing GSP (a young GSP, of course), and easily had the more exciting fights.

I realize that a win is a win, and I have also already acknowledged GSP is the best WW in the sport's history at this point, just pointing this out because I don't want the "gap" between Hughes and GSP to be overrated, yes GSP is the best WW, but it's not by a huge margin, Hughes is damn impressive and has some damn good accomplishments, and a vastly superior finish rate than GSP has, I think that has to be counted for in such a debate.
The finishing rate in this discussion is about as relevant as possession percentage is in soccer. Some teams try to keep the ball and create opportunities off of ball movement, others rely on defense and fast break points.

In this case GSP stresses control. Finishing an opponent is not nearly as important to him as nullifying their offense. And he's successfully nullified the offense of anyone they've put in front of him since Serra. A 50-45 point win is no less dominant than a finish.

You can't impose a different set of rules than the one the sport uses just because finishes look better on screen.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The finishing rate in this discussion is about as relevant as possession percentage is in soccer. Some teams try to keep the ball and create opportunities off of ball movement, others rely on defense and fast break points.

In this case GSP stresses control. Finishing an opponent is not nearly as important to him as nullifying their offense. And he's successfully nullified the offense of anyone they've put in front of him since Serra. A 50-45 point win is no less dominant than a finish.

You can't impose a different set of rules than the one the sport uses just because finishes look better on screen.
Who is using a different set of rules? It's a no brainier that finishing an opponent is more impressive than not.

Do you honestly think getting a decision is more impressive than not? That's ridiculous, and if you say it is, I'd say you are switching the rules up for GSP, and that you would say no such thing for any other fighter. Would anybody on this planet deny that Jones win over Rashad would be more impressive if he had say, finished him in the second round instead of the decision? No, why? Because finishing fights is more substantial and impressive than not finishing them, GSP does not get a pass on this on any level.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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It's debatable that GSP hasn't had a truly great win since the second BJ Penn fight. That was quite a while ago now.

I believe Matt Hughes was the more dominant champion of the two, and the statistics seem to back it up, as MC has pointed out.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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People need to realize that finishing fights doesn't matter.

Floyd Mayweather goes to decision a bunch and he's the biggest draw in Boxing.

GSP goes to decision quite a bit, he's also the biggest draw in MMA as far as PPV sales go now that Lesnar is gone and is a much bigger draw than Anderson on PPV where it matters.

The finishing fight argument clearly does not matter.

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It's debatable that GSP hasn't had a truly great win since the second BJ Penn fight. That was quite a while ago now.

I believe Matt Hughes was the more dominant champion of the two, and the statistics seem to back it up, as MC has pointed out.

Umm...Jake Shields?
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:35 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheLyotoLegion View Post
People need to realize that finishing fights doesn't matter.

Floyd Mayweather goes to decision a bunch and he's the biggest draw in Boxing.

GSP goes to decision quite a bit, he's also the biggest draw in MMA as far as PPV sales go now that Lesnar is gone and is a much bigger draw than Anderson on PPV where it matters.

The finishing fight argument clearly does not matter.




Umm...Jake Shields?
Certainly not an overly dominant win over a fighter who has had an iffy career thus far in the UFC.

Scarcely out striking Jake Shields for a 5 round period isn't some thing I consider overly impressive.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheLyotoLegion View Post
People need to realize that finishing fights doesn't matter.

Floyd Mayweather goes to decision a bunch and he's the biggest draw in Boxing.

GSP goes to decision quite a bit, he's also the biggest draw in MMA as far as PPV sales go now that Lesnar is gone and is a much bigger draw than Anderson on PPV where it matters.

The finishing fight argument clearly does not matter.




Umm...Jake Shields?
Nobody is talking about drawing power, and finish rate does matter when discussing the skill and dominance of two fighters, finish rate directly relates in part to it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:46 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Nobody is talking about drawing power, and finish rate does matter when discussing the skill and dominance of two fighters, finish rate directly relates in part to it.
Not quite, Hughes fought in a completely different era, they've got common opponents in Sherk and Penn and both guys finished BJ the second time around, GSP finished Sherk where as Hughes fought him to a decision.

Fitch and Alves just recently got finished but it was a long, long time in between them, the Koscheck fight should have been stopped also but for some reason they let it go on and let Koscheck suffer serious damage to his eye.

And besides, GSP's finished Hughes twice himself, GSP is clearly the more dominant of the two.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:53 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Not quite, Hughes fought in a completely different era, they've got common opponents in Sherk and Penn and both guys finished BJ the second time around, GSP finished Sherk where as Hughes fought him to a decision.

Fitch and Alves just recently got finished but it was a long, long time in between them, the Koscheck fight should have been stopped also but for some reason they let it go on and let Koscheck suffer serious damage to his eye.

And besides, GSP's finished Hughes twice himself, GSP is clearly the more dominant of the two.
GSP beat Hughes after Hughes prime, and Hughes finished GSP as well in that regard.

Whether Fitch/Alves got finished before or after is irrelevant, both are in the same state they were when they fought him, and both have been finished - they are finish-able opponents.

I agree on the different era, but you can't judge on that. Hughes fought the best in his division by far at the time, the same way GSP fights the best in his division by far at his time. If we went like that, Liddell, Tito, Wandy, CC, Fedor, and anyone else who were dominant years back don't count in any GOAT discussion or any such thing, and GSP/Jones/Anderson won't count 5-10 years from now when even better fighters than them are on top. That's silly.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheLyotoLegion View Post
Not quite, Hughes fought in a completely different era, they've got common opponents in Sherk and Penn and both guys finished BJ the second time around, GSP finished Sherk where as Hughes fought him to a decision.

Fitch and Alves just recently got finished but it was a long, long time in between them, the Koscheck fight should have been stopped also but for some reason they let it go on and let Koscheck suffer serious damage to his eye.

And besides, GSP's finished Hughes twice himself, GSP is clearly the more dominant of the two.
You just raised a point to weaken your own argument there. Koscheck was half blind and mentally defeated by round 2, yet GSP still couldn't put Koscheck away (or even really attempt to) for the remaining four rounds.

He could have ended Koscheck in the 2nd or 3rd round, but didn't.
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