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Old 09-21-2012, 09:48 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Well, this is the fun part of the forum. I think Tyson would have bobbed and weaved into the clinch punishing the body definitely eating some jabs along the way, but he had one helluve defense and head movement. He slips punches so well that the time it takes to retract he's already within firing range. We can go on, but one thing is for sure. PPVs would have been off the charts. Tyson had star power.
He did, but it never sticks that often. He would go for like three rounds taking very few shots, but not being able to cut the massive range between them. Eventually he'd try to switch it up to get in slightly easier and actually do something to win the fight, but he would open himself up to constant jabs. Or at least that's how I think it'd go. I used to say Tyson would have killed Ali a while ago but the more I watched both the more I went against it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:22 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Throwing my 2 cents in: Tyson was great but Ali would've beaten him. Tyson didn't have a big gas tank (he didn't need to) and Ali regularly went into the later rounds. Ali was as tough as a coffin nail so he'd have lasted (even if he had to rope a dope) and worked Tyson in the later rounds. Both are great so it's not taking anything away from Tyson but I think Ali wins that fight definitively.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:31 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Calibretto9 View Post
Throwing my 2 cents in: Tyson was great but Ali would've beaten him. Tyson didn't have a big gas tank (he didn't need to) and Ali regularly went into the later rounds. Ali was as tough as a coffin nail so he'd have lasted (even if he had to rope a dope) and worked Tyson in the later rounds. Both are great so it's not taking anything away from Tyson but I think Ali wins that fight definitively.
It depends at what stage in Ali's career. If it was Tyson instead of Frazier in the first fight, Ali would have been stopped quite quickly. Tyson is WAY to active to lay on the ropes against, and I don't care who you are, you're not taking his best and staying standing. If Ali was dancing around and using his jab, Tyson would have been brutalized or got stopped.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:40 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Ali would win on points. The longer the fight goes the worst it is for Tyson. Something most people aren't remembering is that Ali was a sucker for the left hook, and that was one of Tyson's best weapons. Ali is definitely going to taste the canvas if that fight ever happened, even a prime Ali.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:03 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HadouKEN View Post
Ali would win on points. The longer the fight goes the worst it is for Tyson. Something most people aren't remembering is that Ali was a sucker for the left hook, and that was one of Tyson's best weapons. Ali is definitely going to taste the canvas if that fight ever happened, even a prime Ali.
If George Foreman couldnt drop Ali, Tyson wouldnt stand a chance. Ali was a much different fighter after he won the world title than the one who stepped in against Frazier the first time.

And what reason do you have that Tyson wouldnt get stopped? Tyson pretty much never showed anyone to make anyone believe he was durable and could take a hard punch, and if anything he showed the opposite. If he faught a top level fighter, one of them was getting stopped.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:02 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
If George Foreman couldnt drop Ali, Tyson wouldnt stand a chance. Ali was a much different fighter after he won the world title than the one who stepped in against Frazier the first time.

And what reason do you have that Tyson wouldnt get stopped? Tyson pretty much never showed anyone to make anyone believe he was durable and could take a hard punch, and if anything he showed the opposite. If he faught a top level fighter, one of them was getting stopped.
Styles make fights. Like I said, the left hook was one of Tyson's best weapons. George Foreman hit harder, bu that doesn't have anything to do with Tyson hitting Ali with a left hook.

You have to keep that in your mind. Styles make fights in Boxing. Think about the wars Ali had with guys like Frasier and Ken Norton and such. Again, Ali was a sucker for a left hook. Mike Tyson had one of the best left hooks in Boxing. So right there is one reason why I think Tyson would knock Ali down.

And stop putting words in my mouth where in my post did I state that Tyson would not get stopped? Did i not specifically say Ali would win on points but Tyson would make Ali taste the canvas? Did you miss that part of my post?

Ali's jab was too good,he would have kept Mike Tyson at bay, but one thing you are forgetting or choosing to ignore is that a prime Mike Tyson slipped the jab better than anyone I've ever seen. It is well documented that Tyson had some of the best head movement in the history of boxing. Tyson was capable of slipping the jab and coming under neath with uppercuts, he could bull rush his way in without getting touched and land left hooks.

"Muhammad Ali had great footwork and could dance" That's true, but Ali did not dance for the entire 3 minutes of the round. He picked spots, He did that sometimes, he gets tired, he gets flat footed, he stands straight up. He's gotten caught before. Mike Tyson in his prime is very underrated. Mike Tyson from the time he went pro to 1988 was the real Mike Tyson (Best) in my opinion.

Ali was very easy to hit with the left hook, FACT.
Examples:

-Joe Frazier vs Ali
If Mike Tyson lands that punch, Ali is in serious trouble.

-Chuck Wepner vs Ali (I believe)
Wepner dropped Ali with a body shot hook. Few men through a right hook to the body more ferociously than Tyson. If Wepner could knock Ali down with that punch what in the world makes you think Tyson wouldn't make Ali taste the canvas with his hooks???

Henry Cooper (BUM) vs Ali

If Henry Cooper could knock Ali down with a left hook what makes you think Tyson wouldn't be able to do it??


Here are a couple examples of how the fight could look like:

-Mike Tyson vs Tyrell Biggs

Now I know Tyrell Biggs is not even in the same breath as Ali but I am talking about styles here. Re watch the fight. Biggz attempted to dance around a lot and try to jab and keep Tyson at bay but it didn't work. Ali kept his right hand too low which would enable Tyson to time him and get with a hook.

-Mike Tyson vs Jame Tillis

Tillis also fought with an Ali type style. He had decent footwork, and liked to dance around the ring like a Muhammad Ali, but Tillis lacked Ali’s jab, athleticism, heart, or intelligence btw he was also trained by Angelo Dundee. Tillis went the distance against a prime Mike Tyson. And ton of boxing writers and fans scored the bout for James Tillis, and even more considered it a draw.

So in conclusion, I think Ali would win on points, but Tyson would definitely get Ali with a left hook and knock him down, and hopefully that makes you understand how.

Again I never said Tyson wouldn't get stopped.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:11 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Another thing about Foreman and Tyson. Foreman threw wide sloppy punches, Tyson threw crisp snapping punches. The rope a dope tactic would be a foolish thing to use against a prime Tyson for Ali.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:18 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HadouKEN View Post
Styles make fights. Like I said, the left hook was one of Tyson's best weapons. George Foreman hit harder, bu that doesn't have anything to do with Tyson hitting Ali with a left hook.

You leave two spaces after full stops. It's wierd. But anyways, Tyson's attacks were a lot more predictable than Foreman's. Tyson never went to war with people, he either lost convincingly or knocked people the **** out. I think If Ali could take Frazier's left hook, the punch that made him famous, then Tyson's wouldnt be quite as bad.

You have to keep that in your mind. Styles make fights in Boxing. Think about the wars Ali had with guys like Frasier and Ken Norton and such. Again, Ali was a sucker for a left hook. Mike Tyson had one of the best left hooks in Boxing. So right there is one reason why I think Tyson would knock Ali down.

Frazier has a better one, and once Ali had perfected his style, he found a way around it quite easily. In the last fight Frazier went super human mode so Ali had a lot of trouble with him but in the second Ali took it pretty convincingly because, like Tyson, he knew exactly what to expect.

And stop putting words in my mouth where in my post did I state that Tyson would not get stopped? Did i not specifically say Ali would win on points but Tyson would make Ali taste the canvas? Did you miss that part of my post?

You said Ali would win on points. If Ali wins on points...Tyson would have to not get stopped...I mean...not a difficult concept to get your head around. Ali getting dropped wouldnt be relevent to wether or not Tyson gets stopped. What I said was that if Tyson takes the punishment that the styles would indicate that he would, I don't see him lasting. He wouldnt get a chance to unload on Ali because if it got close Ali would pretty easily tie him up. Tyson might land some body shots on the break but Ali has dealt with that from other fighters and not let it gas him.

Ali's jab was too good,he would have kept Mike Tyson at bay, but one thing you are forgetting or choosing to ignore is that a prime Mike Tyson slipped the jab better than anyone I've ever seen. It is well documented that Tyson had some of the best head movement in the history of boxing. Tyson was capable of slipping the jab and coming under neath with uppercuts, he could bull rush his way in without getting touched and land left hooks.

Prime Tyson never faced anyone with a jab even close to that of Ali, Lewis or the Klitschkos. When he did start fighting guys with that ability, he was walking onto shots all night. You can say that his prison sentance was the reason, but he faced better compititon after he got out of jail and didn't look great against any of them. His pre-jail opponents just werent at the same level as those guys I mentioned.

"Muhammad Ali had great footwork and could dance" That's true, but Ali did not dance for the entire 3 minutes of the round. He picked spots, He did that sometimes, he gets tired, he gets flat footed, he stands straight up. He's gotten caught before. Mike Tyson in his prime is very underrated. Mike Tyson from the time he went pro to 1988 was the real Mike Tyson (Best) in my opinion.

Tyson has never been and will never be underrated. He wrecked nobody opponents with ease. He never faced anyone who knew how to fight, so when the time came he never performed as impressivly. It's Hector Lombard coming into the UFC. Ali was caught before but only a few times and never when he was in his prime fighting condition. Tyson never cut off the ring or used any of the abilities that Frazier had. Tyson had one thing on his mind and that was to run at you like freight train. He never had all of the intricacies like ring awareness in his thoughts. He had head movement, pushing forward and hooks. I think if you take into account the ring awareness and movement of Ali, he'd have easily avoided being trapped in the corners and caught Tyson as he walked in until Mike ran out of steam, before finishing him.

Ali was very easy to hit with the left hook, FACT.
Examples:

-Joe Frazier vs Ali
If Mike Tyson lands that punch, Ali is in serious trouble.

-Chuck Wepner vs Ali (I believe)
Wepner dropped Ali with a body shot hook. Few men through a right hook to the body more ferociously than Tyson. If Wepner could knock Ali down with that punch what in the world makes you think Tyson wouldn't make Ali taste the canvas with his hooks???

Henry Cooper (BUM) vs Ali

If Henry Cooper could knock Ali down with a left hook what makes you think Tyson wouldn't be able to do it??

Ali haden't developed his style fully in any of those fights. Watch Ali's fights after the first Frazier fight and you'll see him in his true fighting prime. He was caught a few times as he was working his way up but when he was on top, he didnt make as silly mistakes. He WAS easy to hit by guys who could put him onto the ropes. Even when he was dancing around the likes of Frazier could tie him down and tee off. But when you have him on the ropes, he's expecting it, and as I've said, if he can take the shots of Fraizer and Foreman he could handle Tyson's. Tyson murdered people with counter punching and when Ali fully developed his style, the only people beating him to me were guys like Lewis or the Klitschkos who used straight punching and a reach advantage.

Here are a couple examples of how the fight could look like:

-Mike Tyson vs Tyrell Biggs

Now I know Tyrell Biggs is not even in the same breath as Ali but I am talking about styles here. Re watch the fight. Biggz attempted to dance around a lot and try to jab and keep Tyson at bay but it didn't work. Ali kept his right hand too low which would enable Tyson to time him and get with a hook.

-Mike Tyson vs Jame Tillis

Tillis also fought with an Ali type style. He had decent footwork, and liked to dance around the ring like a Muhammad Ali, but Tillis lacked Ali’s jab, athleticism, heart, or intelligence btw he was also trained by Angelo Dundee. Tillis went the distance against a prime Mike Tyson. And ton of boxing writers and fans scored the bout for James Tillis, and even more considered it a draw.

Both complete cans.

So in conclusion, I think Ali would win on points, but Tyson would definitely get Ali with a left hook and knock him down, and hopefully that makes you understand how.

Again I never said Tyson wouldn't get stopped.

I would formally like to request how someone can win on points without stopping their opponent. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by HadouKEN View Post
Another thing about Foreman and Tyson. Foreman threw wide sloppy punches, Tyson threw crisp snapping punches. The rope a dope tactic would be a foolish thing to use against a prime Tyson for Ali.

I agree that it would, but prime Ali didnt use the rope a dope. Ali changed up his entire style after losing to Frazier and thats when he would have easily danced around and handled Tyson to me. If he sat on the ropes, Tyson would have been just too sharp for Ali to stay standing from the body shots...but again it's prime for prime.
And for the record I HATE Muhammad Ali and think he was REALLY overrated, but as you said...multiple times...styles make fights and I dont think Tyson had any chance against Ali and would have been brutalised. Tyson was overrated is the fact of it. He beat the worst. Lennox Lewis was caught in the same time line of weak opponents, but because Tyson was the Cris Cyborg of boxing, he smashes through nobodies and got mass attention (his age being a factor too) while Lewis showed a lot more class and talent.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:44 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:46 PM   #60 (permalink)
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"You leave two spaces after full stops. It's wierd. But anyways, Tyson's attacks were a lot more predictable than Foreman's. Tyson never went to war with people, he either lost convincingly or knocked people the **** out. I think If Ali could take Frazier's left hook, the punch that made him famous, then Tyson's wouldnt be quite as bad."

No they were not. Tyson in his prime had a job, he had good hooks and uppercuts in addition to his elusive head movement, I'd like for you to explain to me how Tyson's attacks were more predictable than Tyson's.

"Many brawlers tend to lack mobility in the ring and have difficulty pursuing fighters who are fast on their feet. They prefer the harder, slower punches (such as hooks and uppercuts) and tend to ignore combination punching. Their slowness and predictable punching patterns (single punches with obvious leads) often leaves them open for counterpunching. Famous brawlers include Eric Esch, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Chris Arreola, Jake Lamotta, Rocky Marciano, and Nigel Benn."


You claim Ali could take Frazier's hooks, well I guess that depends on your definition of take, because in that fight ALi was knocked down and he lost that fight so I'm confused by you saying Ali could take Frazier's hook. LOL so Tyson never went to war with people I just gave you an example of one in my last post. Again go watch Tyson vs Tillis.

Peek-a-Boo
Peek-a-Boo is a boxing style where the hands are placed in front of the boxer's face, like in the babies game of the same name. It offers extra protection to the face and makes it easier to jab the opponent's face. Peek-a-Boo boxing was developed by legendary trainer Cus D'Amato. Peek-a-Boo boxing utilizes relaxed hands with the forearms in front of the face and the fist at nose-eye level. Other unique features includes side to side head movements, bobbing, weaving and blind siding your opponent. The number system e.g. 3-2-3-Body-head-body or 3-3-2 Body-Body-head is drilled with the stationary dummy and on the bag until the fighter is able to punch by rapid combinations with what D'Amato called "bad intentions". The theory behind the style is that when combined with effective bobbing and weaving head movement, the fighter has a very strong defense and becomes more elusive, able to throw hooks and uppercuts with great effectiveness. Also allows swift neck movements as well quick duckings and bad returning damage, usually by rising uppercuts or even rising hooks. Famous Peek-a-boo practitioners include Floyd Patterson, Mike Tyson, Kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas, Ruslan Chagaev and Aleksandr Povetkin.


"Frazier has a better one, and once Ali had perfected his style, he found a way around it quite easily. In the last fight Frazier went super human mode so Ali had a lot of trouble with him but in the second Ali took it pretty convincingly because, like Tyson, he knew exactly what to expect."

I agree Ali eventually won the trilogy but as you just said, Ali had a lot of trouble with him.


"ou said Ali would win on points. If Ali wins on points...Tyson would have to not get stopped...I mean...not a difficult concept to get your head around. Ali getting dropped wouldnt be relevent to wether or not Tyson gets stopped. What I said was that if Tyson takes the punishment that the styles would indicate that he would, I don't see him lasting. He wouldnt get a chance to unload on Ali because if it got close Ali would pretty easily tie him up. Tyson might land some body shots on the break but Ali has dealt with that from other fighters and not let it gas him."

When someone says stopped, to me it means TKO meaning the fighter can no longer continue. Or getting completely knocked out. So obviously your definition of getting stopped is different than mine.

"Prime Tyson never faced anyone with a jab even close to that of Ali, Lewis or the Klitschkos. When he did start fighting guys with that ability, he was walking onto shots all night. You can say that his prison sentance was the reason, but he faced better compititon after he got out of jail and didn't look great against any of them. His pre-jail opponents just werent at the same level as those guys I mentioned."

Ali's jab aside, he kept his hand low, it's not like anyone who fought Ali couldn't get near him. Henry Cooper was a bum and he dropped Ali with a left hook, so again what makes you think Tyson wouldn't be able to do it. You're going to have to do better than stating what would have happened.

"Moving bullseye
Vitali Klitschko admitted it himself that he found Chisora hard to hit. With the agressive style of Chisora reminiscent of Smokin’ Joe Frazier, Klitschko found it difficult to time his punches. But since Chisora is slower than Frazier, or Tyson with his upper body movements, Klitschko managed to land a few significant shots, particularly with his straight right and a few uppercuts. Vitali is not known to fire quick multi-shot combos, he’s mainly an accurate single-shot puncher, maybe two or three punch combinations at the most.

Now, Tyson’s body movements are significantly quicker than those of Chisora’s, making him harder to hit, hence more effective. A lower Mike Tyson, bobbing and weaving, being smaller, hence, being harder target to hit, getting into range, firing those right hooks to the body, will eventually hurt Vitali. Another factor is that Chisora, not only does not have the devastating punching power of Tyson, but he also doesn’t have fast hands. Both skills being what made Tyson so destructive in his prime. Vitali himself admitted to that fact in his interview – ““I saw every punch from Chisora. He’s a little bit slow. If Chisora was much faster, then I might’ve had a problem. I saw almost every punch.” And that sentence from Vitali Klitschko himself says it all."


"Tyson has never been and will never be underrated. He wrecked nobody opponents with ease. He never faced anyone who knew how to fight, so when the time came he never performed as impressivly. It's Hector Lombard coming into the UFC. Ali was caught before but only a few times and never when he was in his prime fighting condition. Tyson never cut off the ring or used any of the abilities that Frazier had. Tyson had one thing on his mind and that was to run at you like freight train. He never had all of the intricacies like ring awareness in his thoughts. He had head movement, pushing forward and hooks. I think if you take into account the ring awareness and movement of Ali, he'd have easily avoided being trapped in the corners and caught Tyson as he walked in until Mike ran out of steam, before finishing him."

This is completely false and inaccurate I'm not even going to bother with this.


It doesn't matter if they were cans, the proof is in the pudding and yo have no proof to back up yours.

Again depends on your definition of stopping:

If Ali wins on the points then the fight is already over correct? Meaning it's the 12th round and the judges have to go to the scorecards to determine the winner. The fight at that time is over so how exactly is the fighter (who loses) STOPPED?

All depends on your definition, but you don't have to be a dickhead about it. Implying I can't wrap my head around something just because I disagree with you.

I agree Ali is overrated, but you are clearly biased against Tyson and you haven't provided any proof as to how Ali would brutalize him. Peace.
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