Is Vinny Magalhaes the best pure grappler in UFC history? - Page 3 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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View Poll Results: UFC's best grappler

Magalhaes 3 8.82%
Werdum 7 20.59%
Maia 11 32.35%
Mir 3 8.82%
Gracie 2 5.88%
Penn 1 2.94%
Big Nog 3 8.82%
Other 4 11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DonRifle View Post
Didnt he take a serious beating against Kimo? I know he locked him up at the end but I remember he could hardly stand and wasnt able to fight the last fight.

Your mostly right about them not knowing shit about submission defence but then there are guys like Ken Shamrock who knew a bit fighting the pancration stuff, and Oleg Taktarov knew some good sub defence.
I would counter your argument that while the opposition might be limited, Royce was limited also, whereas you have to think Vinny has trained wrestling, boxing and various other things a hell of a lot even if he does pull guard.
I understand that Royce was limited but you have to kind of bring it all together to become the best. It's the same reason that Rocky Marciano wouldnt be close to a world title in boxing now a days. The ga,me has changed and everyone has improved so much. Royce was a killer, but at the same time he was predictable and fight knowledge didnt show it yet. He flicks his leg and went for a takedown every time, and if he didnt get you down, he went on his back and easily kept his opponent on top of him. No one even knew how to stand up let alone out grapple him. A lot of the submissions Gracie locked in arent seen these days, and it's not because he was so good that he could lock them in, it's because his opponents couldnt avoid them. He submitted people with RNCs without sinking in his hooks, or even controlling the full back position. These days, people know enough to avoid getting choked out from what was basically a headlock, but back then they felt their throat closing and tapped out of fear.

Royce is amazing, and in terms of legacy and dominance he is one of the greatest of all time, but when you're talking skill level as an MMA fighter, I don't think he showed nearly enough to be considered one of the best by today's standards.

I'm not saying Vinny is one of the best either. I dont think he's shown enough against high level oposition in MMA yet and it'll be interesting to see how he progressed. Maia would probably be my pick, or Mir.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Ah yes but I dont think the debate is on todays standards, we are talking about all time, and that makes it very hard if not impossible to give a clear winner as its such a clouded debate with all the stuff we are discussing.

I've kind of forgotten if Maia is any good on the ground since he decided he wanted to be a boxer and started losing fights! In todays game I think the two best are Mir and Palharaes because of how vicious they are. I would have said palharaes for sure until I saw what Belcher did to him. Vinny needs to beat a few top guys in the heat of the octagon before he can be considered up with the best

Can you imagine if Mir was holding JJ arm instead of Vitor?? Well you probably can if you can remember Silvias arm popping that time! Respect has gone up 2 points for JJ after he fought on for a few rounds with that.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Yeah but to me, the game RIGHT NOW is the best it has ever been and the talent is so great. All time is relevent but I think because of how talented everyone is now, it has to be a near active fighter.

Mir would have def snapped his arm yeah. Maia needs to box because pure grapplers dont have any chance any more. You get some takedown defence and you knock those guys out all week.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:51 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DonRifle View Post
Ah yes but I dont think the debate is on todays standards, we are talking about all time, and that makes it very hard if not impossible to give a clear winner as its such a clouded debate with all the stuff we are discussing.

I've kind of forgotten if Maia is any good on the ground since he decided he wanted to be a boxer and started losing fights! In todays game I think the two best are Mir and Palharaes because of how vicious they are. I would have said palharaes for sure until I saw what Belcher did to him. Vinny needs to beat a few top guys in the heat of the octagon before he can be considered up with the best

Can you imagine if Mir was holding JJ arm instead of Vitor?? Well you probably can if you can remember Silvias arm popping that time! Respect has gone up 2 points for JJ after he fought on for a few rounds with that.
Vinny would have torn Bones' arm to pieces if he had him that deep in an armbar.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:36 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I have been thinking more and more about this, and I am going to say yes. From a 100% pure grappling standpoint I think he is. The dude has beaten people regarded as the absolute best in the world. His resume is amazing. The guy got a win over Werdum who had Vinny in a full armbar and couldn't tap him. Lister and Drysdale are insanely good wins. We keep hearing about how Weidman is this awesome grappler who is going to completely control Silva. Vinny beat Weidman with a freaking flying armbar.

The dude is legit. Yeah Jake beat him but I would put money down that if they met again Jake would lose. Vinny isn't close to the same grappler he was back then.


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Old 09-27-2012, 12:52 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Maia needs to box because pure grapplers dont have any chance any more. You get some takedown defence and you knock those guys out all week.
Of course Maia had to add some striking to his game in modern day MMA, but it looks like he completely abandoned his grappling and just replaced it with shitty boxing.

If I remember right he himself stated in an pre-fight interview before the Weidman fight that he should and would return to his successful roots and concentrate more on his BJJ again, but what did he do then in the Weidman fight¿ As soon as it hit the ground, he used his BJJ to STAND UP again, so he could restart with his shitty boxing.

Maia maybe once was great, but he decided to not be anymore. Skill declines if you don't practice it anymore.

At the moment I'd have a tendency to go with Mir. He was beaten half unconscious by Nogueira, but went for a successful submission on auto-pilot.

Magalhaes has some impressive credentials too though.
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