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Old 10-06-2012, 11:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Is the plum clinch underused in MMA, and why/why not?

Something of a random thought. But I wanted to get other people's take on this.

The last time I recall seeing the Thai clinch effectively in MMA was Werdum/Nelson, which was a while back.

It's also the thing I feel is missing most in Struve's arsenal, even more than an effective jab.

We see people get their hands on the back of their opponents head quite a bit, but nothing ever seems to come of it. And it doesn't look to me like it's being defended well as much as fighters don't seem to commit to it. And I don't really understand why.

Is it a case of good defense? Is it a risk/reward thing? Is it just a matter of current trends? What do you guys think?

*Side note - I'm really interested to see if Henderson will try to use it against Diaz. He has the strength to control Nate's upper body, and I think it will effectively nullify most of his offense. It's also one of the many tactics Rory can use against BJ.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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the problem with the Thai Clinch in MMA is that it gives the wrestlers double underhooks for the takedowns, only really effective if your opponent does not want to take the fight to the ground against you at all costs or if you have 2 guys so confident in there Thai clinch technique they feel they can punble to win the clinch battle, the guy in the clinch would have to be very confident in been able to turn it round however to pass up the chance of double underhooks and a TD.

Sometimes works in short bursts when you have your opponent pinned up against the cage but to hold if for any given time is just asking your opponent to work with the underhooks and win the TD.

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Old 10-06-2012, 12:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I think we see it as much as almost any other technique really. It's a very effective move for guys who have it in their arsenal. Tim Means lands nasty quick counter thai plum knees.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It happens all the time. Thing is though, any Wrestler takes the Thai Plum as an invitation to get double underhooks and closes the gap instantly to work for the take down. It's not that it doesn't happen, it's simply ineffective against a solid Wrestler, which is like 93% of professional Mixed Martial Artists.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think we'll see it more and more with the lower levels. I believe Silar, Hettes, Garza, Miller could all benefit from it. If Amir Sadollah can hit 155 that would be a good tool for him. The problem with a Struve doing it at HW you can get taken down and it is harder to survive off your back at HW than at any other weight class.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMAROLLER View Post
the problem with the Thai Clinch in MMA is that it gives the wrestlers double underhooks for the takedowns, only really effective if your opponent does not want to take the fight to the ground against you at all costs or if you have 2 guys so confident in there Thai clinch technique they feel they can punble to win the clinch battle, the guy in the clinch would have to be very confident in been able to turn it round however to pass up the chance of double underhooks and a TD.

Sometimes works in short bursts when you have your opponent pinned up against the cage but to hold if for any given time is just asking your opponent to work with the underhooks and win the TD.
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Originally Posted by duckyou666 View Post
It happens all the time. Thing is though, any Wrestler takes the Thai Plum as an invitation to get double underhooks and closes the gap instantly to work for the take down. It's not that it doesn't happen, it's simply ineffective against a solid Wrestler, which is like 93% of professional Mixed Martial Artists.
That's true in a lot of cases, but not always. We know Miocic wanted nothing to do with Struve on the ground, for example, but Stephan didn't use the Thai clinch even when he had it.

Condit probably wasn't too worried about Nick taking him down, but didn't use the Thai clinch even when he had it.

Besides, the collar tie is used in wrestling as well.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you're strong enough you can control the neck thus the head. Wherever your head goes is where your body follows. There's an art to the clinch which I like to think I specialize in. It's something you do not want to be stuck in.

A wrestler can close the gap, but will almost always absorb at least a few strikes or one solid knee to the body.

It's also fairly easy to counter though. Swim under to apply a Thai clinch against your opponent, stick your hand in his face to create distance, break the clasp, or go for a takedown. The latter can be dangerous because all he has to do is move away which gives him/her the leverage to land one big knee.

As we all know Anderson put the Muay Thai clinch on full display also Wanderlei vs Rampage and Cung Le more recently.
I saw Cain do it once and landed wicked leg kicks which was nasty!

Imagine The Reem landing one in the clinch. It's so game over. He probably has the most deadliest one shot knee KOs.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think the hard part to the clinch is keeping it locked on so that you can keep blasting the victim with knees until he's out cold. To do that well & consistently you need to lock the clinch on firmly and keep swinging the guy around to keep him off-balance so he can't go for a takedown or counter the clinch. Best demonstration of that was Anderson Silva ragdolling Franklin around the cage while blasting him with knees.

Locking the clinch on isn't enough, that'll give you the chance to land maybe 4-6 knees before the other guy finds a counter to break the clinch. You need to swing the guy around & keep him off-balance if you want to hit him with 20 knees in Anderson Silva style or do what Wandy did to Rampage in Pride. And it's the swinging around part that very few fighters have figured out so far, lots of fighters have used the clinch and a number of them have gotten to the part where they lock it on, but they haven't figured out the ragdolling part quite yet.

Shogun for instance has used the clinch in a bunch of his fights and done knee & leg kick combos from it, but he doesn't swing guys around by the neck so he only gets 5-6 hit combos out of them. JDS also got a decent clinch on
Roy Nelson and got about 3-4 knees in, could've had a bunch more knees if he pinched down and swung him a bit.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:04 AM   #9 (permalink)

 
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Combination of not wanting to give up under hooks which generally is the more dominant position in the clinch and secondly IMO its got a lot to due with leverage, typically when we see it utilized we also see a substantial difference in height where the added leverage can help make it more effective.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Actually I got my mate into the hold tonight and seen if he could get out of it. He couldnt. I showed him how to grapple out of it, but that means something you know.

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