Why is it the general consensus that Nick Diaz gets laid on by wrestlers? - Page 2 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 04:27 PM
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I don't think he'd get laid on by Wrestlers. But..., he'd get taken down at will. He just walks forward. Which is the stupidest thing you can do against a Wrestle-first capable fighter. Kos will take him down and keep him there until Diva attempts to mount some offense from his back. Then he'll get back up, fire off the overhand a time or two, then take him back down. It will be the exact same thing for 15 minutes. Or..., until Kos lands with the overhand.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 05:38 PM
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The consensus isn't that he gets laid on by wrestlers but that he has never beat a wrestler. Going for solid takedowns combined with his stance and practically non-existent tdd makes him unable to mount a real offense. Even his method of walking people down makes it easier for them to take him down if they are so inclined. He can't get into his rhythm under that kind of attack.

It's just a bad match up for him.
How does he have non-existant tdd? We've seen him stuff plenty of takedowns. You don't half love a good inaccurate sweeping statement.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 05:40 PM
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From what wrestlers? Virtually every time someone tries to take him down he goes down.

That is not dead which can eternal lie and withs strange aeons even death may die.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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From what wrestlers? Virtually every time someone tries to take him down he goes down.
Stuffed Sherks bazillion take down attempts, stuffed Penns take down attempts towards the end of the first and the second round.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 06:00 PM
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Stuffed Sherks bazillion take down attempts, stuffed Penns take down attempts towards the end of the first and the second round.
So one wrestler and Penn? And note that Diaz - in the Sherk fight - was so focused on avoiding the takedown that he got out struck by Sherk. This should not have happened.

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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 06:30 PM
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So one wrestler and Penn? And note that Diaz - in the Sherk fight - was so focused on avoiding the takedown that he got out struck by Sherk. This should not have happened.
So you acknowledge that he's stuffed takedowns before? How did he do that with his virtually non-existant tdd?
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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So one wrestler and Penn? And note that Diaz - in the Sherk fight - was so focused on avoiding the takedown that he got out struck by Sherk. This should not have happened.
You asked for examples and I provided you with them.

Diaz having non-existent TDD is just a gross exaggeration.

His TDD may not be great and it's certainly the weakest aspect of his game, but it's far from being non existent.

Penn may not have the wrestling credentials under his belt, but the stats speak for them selves. A great TD/TDD ratio and out wrestled a man considered one of the best wrestlers in the WW division for two rounds (Fitch).

Penn has some very solid wrestling.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 06:57 PM
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So you acknowledge that he's stuffed takedowns before? How did he do that with his virtually non-existant tdd?
Stuffing some takedowns doesn't make him have good or even average tdd. If he did he might have beaten a wrestler at some point but he hasn't.

And, Grapple, Penn is a great defensive wrestler who caught Fitch off guard. He is not a great or even above average offensive wrestler. And I am really tired of discussing Diaz with you. You don't actually want people's reasons for thinking a wrestler will beat him. You just want them here so you can try and prove them wrong.

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Stuffing some takedowns doesn't make him have good or even average tdd. If he did he might have beaten a wrestler at some point but he hasn't.

And, Grapple, Penn is a great defensive wrestler who caught Fitch off guard. He is not a great or even above average offensive wrestler. And I am really tired of discussing Diaz with you. You don't actually want people's reasons for thinking a wrestler will beat him. You just want them here so you can try and prove them wrong.
Stop twisting your original argument around. You said that Diaz has non-existent TDD and I have provided you with evidence of Diaz showcasing solid TDD against a man considered an elite level wrestler back in his day. Accept the fact that you massively over-exaggerated and move on, instead of trying to form new, pointless arguments.

I'm tired of hearing the "Penn just caught Fitch off guard" nonsense. Because it came out of Fitch's mouth. Fitch has been wrestling his entire life and has out wrestled almost all of his opponents to date. He will be training his ass off day after day at AKA improving on every facet of his MMA game. Offensive wrestling, defensive, striking, every thing. I don't want to hear the BS about Fitch not properly training his defensive wrestling because he never predicted BJ to go for a take down.

BJ has always had a strong but under utilised offensive wrestling game and there is no way the coaches at AKA didn't realise this, especially not Camirillo. BJ is known for his out standing top game and immediately taking the back. He gets to that position first off by scoring take downs.

Penn has taken down the likes of Florian, Frankie Edgar, Jon Fitch, a prime Takanori Gomi, hell, even Lyoto Machida he managed to score a take down against. He even scored a take down on GSP in their first fight.

He may not spam take downs like the majority of decorated wrestlers, but he does have strong offensive take downs in his arsenal and has proven that his entire career.

This discussion isn't about whether a wrestler will beat Diaz. Did you read any of the OP? It is about the misconception that a lot of fans seem to think that wrestlers lie on top of Diaz and smother him. That isn't the case.
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 07:27 PM
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I think people tend to overrate Diaz's performance against Penn. I think Penn was dominating that fight for the first round, then gassed out. I think he was outclassing Diaz in that fight. I don't think Diaz really stuffed any takedowns, just that Penn stopped pushing the pace because he was gassed.

I do have to give Grappler some credit - I went back in and looked at Diaz's fight history, he really hasn't been laid on as much as I thought he did. HOwever, I don't think he's going to sub Kos, and even if he keeps getting up again I think Kos can rack up the points with tds and win a decision.

Side note, is this fight official or just a rumor?
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