Hugely over emphasising top control and why it's become the norm in MMA - Page 5 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:22 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Talked about this yesterday, people thought I'm just a hater!!

Check this fact out: here

See fact #20

Tell me I'm a hatred again
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:49 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rul3z View Post


Talked about this yesterday, people thought I'm just a hater!!

Check this fact out: here

See fact #20

Tell me I'm a hatred again
GSP fought a war in which he dominated. People get cut up / bruised up in wars all the time.

You are a hater. That was a hell of a fight. You are more concerned with the fact that GSP didn't finish than the fact that we got to see an amazing fight.

I could understand the hate for GSP if this fight was boring and he didn't finish. But it was a ******* war against a really tough opponent... and all GSP haters care about is that 1. GSP didn't finish and 2. OMG GSP was cut / bruised at the end of the fight.

Good God the amount of trolling on this board lately has been almost unbearable. I feel like sherdog bought this place out and is slowly merging the forums together. God help up.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:17 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hammerlock2.0 View Post
It is what is it and positions count although they shouldn't. Fact is GSP and a lot of other guys who rely on top control would probably fight very differently if the rules were changed and control didn't matter. In my opinion these rules we have right now are biased to the point where a certain skillset is made almost useless whereas another skillset is absolutely overpowered. That's just not the way it should be. The game is rigged.
Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way then.

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Originally Posted by PheelGoodInc View Post
That's cute you sigh online.

You still didn't explain the point of your GIF. GSP wasn't scoring in the judges eyes based on that three second GIF. That was also a fraction of the fight, and in itself had absolutely nothing to do with how the fight was scored.

I am seriously wondering if we are just being trolled at this point.
Jesus man, does he have to spell it out for you. He was proving a point to me that GSP busted Condit wide open (which I've already acknowledged on countless occasions).
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:51 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerlock2.0 View Post
It is what is it and positions count although they shouldn't. Fact is GSP and a lot of other guys who rely on top control would probably fight very differently if the rules were changed and control didn't matter. In my opinion these rules we have right now are biased to the point where a certain skillset is made almost useless whereas another skillset is absolutely overpowered. That's just not the way it should be. The game is rigged.
Certain skill sets ARE overpowering, and wrestling right now is one of them.

As much as you might love to see a stand up bare knuckle brawl, stand up striking is one of the least effective of MMA skill sets. Even in an all out street a good wrestler or BBJ practitioner, baring a sucker punch, will have it all over someone good with their fists and feet.

If you want to be a good MMA fighter you need to be good at all the martial arts, not just one of them.

Control is important, very very important, otherwise instead of raining down fists from full and half guard, GSP would have been tapping out to an arm or leg bar, or swept and suffering a rain of punches from Condit.

Is BBJ important? If so, then preventing a good BJJ practitioner from using their BJJ skills on you is equally important (ie: control)

Is striking important? Then preventing someone from striking is equally important (ie: bringing them to the ground and controlling them.)

This one dimensional evaluation of MMA fighting is getting very tiresome ... the fact that you think top control is over valued simply tells me you don't understand fighting.

If you think a certain aspect of a MMA fight is boring, or you don't understand why it is included in the scoring then the likely problem is not that the MMA rules suck, it's more likely that you are not understanding something about MMA fighting, so go some research on the technique and maybe you will learn that there is something more to the technique than meets the eye.


ETA: I assume you think that because Condit was on his back and actively punching up at GSP that this should have been considered higher in the scoring ratings for Condit ... but that's a misunderstanding of what was going on. Punching from your back is a 'weak' technique. It's a defensive technique that is aimed at preventing your opponent from setting up for much stronger top punches and elbows. You're not going to stop an opponent or even score damage with punches off your back ... the real danger from your back is BJJ, and that's where control comes in and why it is important .... what do you think is more important and should be scored higher? hitting your opponent from your back with some weak punches all the while allowing your opponent to stay on top and rain down hard punches and elbows? or staying on top of your opponent, raining down some pretty good fists and elbows and preventing your opponent from setting up for a submission?

Even if you though that top control should not be rated high in the scoring, there's no way in hell that you can then claim that laying there with someone on top of you should count for anything.

If top control is over rated, then that should only be because it is not important to the outcome of the fight and can easily be countered ... if it's so 'unimportant', then fighters on their back should counter the technique and that would stop any chance of it scoring.

When MMA first started, someone though striking was over rated as a fighting technique. To prove it they went in the ring and beat the crap out of strikers twice his size .... that's how you rate an MMA technique. Does it work? Then it's important. When top control stops working and everyone can get out of it or easily turn it into a submission attempt? Then you can claim it as overrated.

Personally, if there is any MMA skill that is over rated, it's striking (but just slightly overrated .. especially in the minds of some MMA fans.)

Last edited by NoYards : 11-19-2012 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:06 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PheelGoodInc View Post
GSP fought a war in which he dominated. People get cut up / bruised up in wars all the time.

You are a hater. That was a hell of a fight. You are more concerned with the fact that GSP didn't finish than the fact that we got to see an amazing fight.

I could understand the hate for GSP if this fight was boring and he didn't finish. But it was a ******* war against a really tough opponent... and all GSP haters care about is that 1. GSP didn't finish and 2. OMG GSP was cut / bruised at the end of the fight.

Good God the amount of trolling on this board lately has been almost unbearable. I feel like sherdog bought this place out and is slowly merging the forums together. God help up.
It's ridiculous. You'd think that 25 minutes of intense and actual fighting was some sort of punishment. This site is becoming unbearable.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:01 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I hear what people are saying about winning on a points system although Saturday wasn't really won by that. I've come to accept it. Edgar doesn't have much KO power so he has to stick and move. GSP does not have KO power either and coupled with a bad experience he has opted with the GJ fight system although he is very active...much more so than say Fitch, Lay Praynard, and definitely more so than Guida.

Early on people couldn't figure out Royce's technique until years down the road. His time passed.

Tito couldn't be stopped that was until the Iceman came in with the sprawl and brawl technique. Hughes was on a tear til a chubby Hawaiian submitted em and then a Canadian entered the scene who truly dethroned em.

Brock was winning by overpowering and controlling his opponents through sheer power and gnp until Cain learned to reverse through a butterfly guard, and Overeem showed him it was time to pick on someone his own size.

Chael Sonnen smothers people very similarly to all the other wrestlers, but guess what he got submitted by Maia and Anderson Silva.

Point is they all FOUND A WAY to win and each eventually were replaced. In the laws of the jungle only the strong survive through adaptation.

Look, I'm an all offensive type of guy in any sports you can think of. I hate the whole (safe) defense wins game strategy although I've come to learn that it's part of the game.

At the end of the day you can hate it, but you have to respect it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PheelGoodInc View Post
That's cute you sigh online.

You still didn't explain the point of your GIF. GSP wasn't scoring in the judges eyes based on that three second GIF. That was also a fraction of the fight, and in itself had absolutely nothing to do with how the fight was scored.

I am seriously wondering if we are just being trolled at this point.
I feel the same way.

I posted the gif because like I said above in the post I later quoted for you (I was trying to make this easier for you), I was working on some gifs from the event and I was going to post them later.

I just thought it was a cool moment in the fight, so I made a gif out of it, and imo that was the best camera shot of the whole fight showing the damage that GSP did to Condit's face.

But by all means, continue having a tantrum.

And if you watch the fight again, you'll see that the moment I giffed is right after a brief moment where Condit manages to get top position on GSP. For all of about 8 seconds, before being reversed. Which is exactly what the judges scored the fight for: GSP's absolute dominance and control on the ground for 90% of the fight.

The fact he made a bloody mess out of Condit's face was just icing on the cake.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrappleRetarded View Post
GSPS's face seems to indicate that Condits strikes from the bottom were indeed effective.

How did you score the Guida/Pettis fight? (not comparing this fight to Guida/Pettis, just curious)
I thought the MMA world agreed not to do a "he clearly did more damage, look at his face". There are so many people who just cut easier/bruise easier than others etc etc.

We all get surprised when GSP looks like that because he rarely even gets hit.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:06 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I thought the MMA world agreed not to do a "he clearly did more damage, look at his face". There are so many people who just cut easier/bruise easier than others etc etc.

We all get surprised when GSP looks like that because he rarely even gets hit.
I didn't say that the cuts and bruises on his face were indicative of Condit doing more damage, I simply said that they were proof that Condit inflicted damage from the bottom position, which he did.

As for Condit doing more damage throughout the fight, that was very evident with the head kick and follow up GNP he landed in round three. By far the most significant and damaging strikes in the entire fight.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:12 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Not going to read through all the pages but.. top position is overvalued, that's true. GSP most definitely won this fight and it's foolish to say otherwise. Fights like Mousasi/Lawal and Pettis/Guida pretty much prove how overvalued the top position is.
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