Hugely over emphasising top control and why it's become the norm in MMA - Page 8 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:11 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GrappleRetarded View Post
Before you guys start labelling me as a sour Condit fan, I gave GSP the nod and scored it three rounds to two in a thrilling and competitive fight.

I can't be alone in thinking that top control is just ridiculously over valued in this sport, because it seems like people are just accepting the fact that who ever is on top from the guard(s) position is automatically winning the fight, regardless of what the opponent is doing from the bottom.

Having watched the fight two times now and reading the responses not just on here, but on various online MMA forums and blogs, it really infuriates me to see people label this fight as a dominant and easy victory for GSP and for the judges to score it 50-45 for GSP - how is this even possible?

Why do you rate control over damage? Why is control such an over emphasised aspect of judging criteria?



I guess the best way I can put it is that the person on the bottom is in a position he does not want to be in. Everything he tries is a desperation move to change the current situation. He may be active in the bottom but if it isn't getting him anywhere then what good is his attempts.


In a real fight, simply controlling the other person doesn't get you the win. In a real fight, two guys scrap it out until their opponent is either knocked out, submitted or just verbally gives up. Fighting is about breaking the wills of your adversaries, not holding them to the ground for as long as you can.


GSP doesn't just holds his opponents to the ground despite popular believe. He out wrestlers his opponents and even deals damage of his own while on top.



Do people know that judges were enforced into combat sports to simply stop fights ending in draws. If there were no judges, fighters would have to go for the finish and thus be much more encouraged to inflict real damage rather than simply "control" their opponents.

That logic is flawed. If their are no judges most fighters would just fight to survive. Best example would be Carlson Gracie Jr vs John Lewis. Lewis knew he didn't stand a chance against Carlson if the fight went to the ground and so he pinned him against the cage for 15 minutes. Since their were no judges the fight was declared a draw and Lewis got half of the winners pot just for being a bitch.

And I actually thought Condit did a fantastic job of controlling GSP's posture throughout the majority of the fight from the bottom position.
Hoped I answered some of your questions
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:26 AM   #72 (permalink)
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In a real fight, simply controlling the other person doesn't get you the win. In a real fight, two guys scrap it out until their opponent is either knocked out, submitted or just verbally gives up. Fighting is about breaking the wills of your adversaries, not holding them to the ground for as long as you can.
Sorry GR, but this isn't a "real fight". This is Mixed Martial Arts, a sport wth rules and limitations. Opinion and philosophy of sport is all relative. I know some people who play sports for legacy. I know some who play sports due to their competitve nature. I know people who play sports for fun. But we can all agree that in a sport, there is a winner and a loser. The winner is the one who meets the criteria of the rules and completes them effectiely, or more so than his/her opponent and that is exactly what GSP did (as you've acknowledged).

I also have to disagree with your scorecard. I personally have watched the fight now about four times and I would have scored it 50-46, with round three being very close. Yes, Condit landed an awesomehead kick followed up by some heavy ground and pound, but St. Pierre controlled the contest in that round outside of that sequence. I don't know how anyone could score any of the other rounds for Condit. He was outstruck, beat up, and taken down at will. He was competitive, but still outclassed.

However...
Everyone knows me as someone who espouses the antithesis of the testosterone "true fighting" philosophy. I hate it. But, while I believe that this is a sport, it is also a combat sport. Damage should be the primary criteria, regardless of the position. I was livid after the Johnson/Torres fight because Johnson literally just layed in Torres' guard and did nothing while Torres completely wrecked him from the bottom. Yeah, Johnson had positional control and that should count for something but he did absolutely nothing with it while Torres was pounding away. This wasn't the case Saturday night with St. Pierre/Condit.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:16 AM   #73 (permalink)
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I think the annoying thing isn't that the guy who gets top control usually wins, it's more that that judges seem to think that the guy who gets top control ALWAYS WINS. This rewards the takedown and top control too much and ignores how comfortable the guy on the bottom is and what he is doing. While GSP clearly won the fight, there is no way that he won every round.

The UFC markets itself as being "as real as it gets" and mixed martial arts get their legitimacy from how effective they are in real combat situations - therefore, the judging should be as close as possible to what would win a real fight - damage and closeness to getting the finish.

That said, I don't think lay and pray is that big a problem, just because guys who do it don't get many fans and therefore don't make much money.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:22 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mastodon2222 View Post
I agree. All things equal, top position is always the better place to be. The only position where it's almost equal is full guard. The only time I'd score it for the bottom guy is if he's actively trying subs and keeping the top guy so busy/worried that he can't effectively use his top advantage.
^^^^ This.

If you are on the bottom and want to win the round, then you better have pulled guard and are actively getting decent sub attempts all the while staying away from the GNP.

If you are a known skilled BJJ practitioner, put on your back against your will,and are not getting hardly any chances to hook a sub attempt, and on the rare occasion when you do you end up having your sub attempts easily shrugged off, then you have lost the round.

Some people who complain about GSP and the ground game need to rewatch the GSP/Shields fight, then come back and tell me how much more exciting a stand up game can be ... the ring girls will pillows would have been more exciting. That's a fight where a good ground fight was much needed.

Last edited by NoYards : 11-20-2012 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:49 AM   #75 (permalink)
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In the eyes of the judges, the guy in top position is in the dominant position. End of story. If the fighter on top stays busy and inflicts damage then this is justified even more.

The only fighter that comes to mind which is dangerous and succesful off their back is Anderson - he will throw elbows, inflict damage and actually GETS submissios.

Usually if a fight goes to the ground and there is not much action it gets stood up anyways.

Is top position over emphasized? Not if it is done properly. A guy like GSP is probably the best at it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:16 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
Lol i know alot of people who like doing that. Its almost a habit like biting your fingernails or something.

I also press on pimples that pop up. It hurts but kinda feels good.

And its funny how the only thing you responded to is a side comment about something I enjoy doing. Lmao

Nice deflector Retarded.
Biting your finger nails doesn't hurt, what are you talking about? Popping pimples hurts, but that has a purpose, to try and reduce the size of the pimple by getting rid of all the crap inside of it. What purpose does pressing on bruises have? It doesn't feel good and it certainly doesn't help reduce the size of the bruise. Stop talking rubbish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Sorry GR, but this isn't a "real fight". This is Mixed Martial Arts, a sport wth rules and limitations. Opinion and philosophy of sport is all relative. I know some people who play sports for legacy. I know some who play sports due to their competitve nature. I know people who play sports for fun. But we can all agree that in a sport, there is a winner and a loser. The winner is the one who meets the criteria of the rules and completes them effectiely, or more so than his/her opponent and that is exactly what GSP did (as you've acknowledged).

I also have to disagree with your scorecard. I personally have watched the fight now about four times and I would have scored it 50-46, with round three being very close. Yes, Condit landed an awesomehead kick followed up by some heavy ground and pound, but St. Pierre controlled the contest in that round outside of that sequence. I don't know how anyone could score any of the other rounds for Condit. He was outstruck, beat up, and taken down at will. He was competitive, but still outclassed.

However...
Everyone knows me as someone who espouses the antithesis of the testosterone "true fighting" philosophy. I hate it. But, while I believe that this is a sport, it is also a combat sport. Damage should be the primary criteria, regardless of the position. I was livid after the Johnson/Torres fight because Johnson literally just layed in Torres' guard and did nothing while Torres completely wrecked him from the bottom. Yeah, Johnson had positional control and that should count for something but he did absolutely nothing with it while Torres was pounding away. This wasn't the case Saturday night with St. Pierre/Condit.
See my earlier post. At the end of the day it all boils down to opinion on how you value this sport and it's competitors. Whether you take the sportsman approach and appreciate that this is a sport with set rules and criteria to win contests (your view) or whether you appreciate the guys who go out there and fight for the finish every time they step into the ring, trying to completely break their opponents (me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrappleRetarded View Post
I think my main gripe with "fighters" who look to grind out decision victories, content to control their opponents and score points rather than look for the kill is the fact there are set rounds. I always find myself asking; what if there were no round limits? Jon Fitch may very well be capable of beating Nick Diaz in a three/five round contest, but if there was no limit to the rounds, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Nick Diaz would at some point finish Jon Fitch and make him wilt under the pressure.

To me, the essence of Martial Arts and fighting has always been about making your opponent buckle under your pressure and giving up in some form, whether it be by KO, submission or verbally giving up. I get that this is a sport with rules, but I will always respect the true "fighters" for their warrior spirit over the sportsmen looking to play the points game.
There is no right or wrong answer here, just a difference of opinions.

Last edited by GrappleRetarded : 11-20-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:41 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrappleRetarded View Post
Biting your finger nails doesn't hurt, what are you talking about? Popping pimples hurts, but that has a purpose, to try and reduce the size of the pimple by getting rid of all the crap inside of it. What purpose does pressing on bruises have? It doesn't feel good and it certainly doesn't help reduce the size of the bruise. Stop talking rubbish.
Did i say popping a pimple???

No..

I said pressing on a pimple.

I dont understand how you dont get this. I find it hard to believe you have never pressed on a bruise or a pimple.

You are the one talking rubbish.

Or maybe you really havent cause you cower from a little pain.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:45 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kritter View Post
I think the annoying thing isn't that the guy who gets top control usually wins, it's more that that judges seem to think that the guy who gets top control ALWAYS WINS. This rewards the takedown and top control too much and ignores how comfortable the guy on the bottom is and what he is doing. While GSP clearly won the fight, there is no way that he won every round.
You are wrong, sir. The only round that is even in contention is the third round. GSP clearly dominated every other round. Please go back and watch the fight again.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:53 PM   #79 (permalink)
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I think that top control is over emphasized, but not hugely.

As others have stated, the person on top is automatically ahead. The top fighter's strikes will deal a higher baseline of damage, and he will usually already have scored points of landing a takedown that brought him to that position. Excluding incidents where the bottom fighter is tearing an inactive top guy apart with elbows, it totally makes sense to favor the latter.

In regards to the GSP-Condit fight, no one is saying Condit won. I would, however, argue that someone who gave Rd 3 to GSP is scoring takedowns too heavily. CC dropped GSP and attacked with a flurry of punches and elbows to a downed opponent. For a few moments, GSP was in danger of being finished; that is worth way more than any takedowns and meager GnP that happened later that round.

Conversely, GSP dominated the rest of the fight. He was very active on top with his punches and elbows -- many of which got through pretty clean, despite what some say. I wouldn't give GSP much credit for passing into half-guard, though. That won't get you any points at a grappling tournament, nor should they in an MMA fight.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:08 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
Did i say popping a pimple???

No..

I said pressing on a pimple.

I dont understand how you dont get this. I find it hard to believe you have never pressed on a bruise or a pimple.

You are the one talking rubbish.

Or maybe you really havent cause you cower from a little pain.
Over 8000 posts and you still post like a 12 year old kid who's just discovered an internet forum. Good lord.
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