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Old 02-04-2013, 04:01 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:59 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I'm not for anybody promoting a self belief, however I do feel that fighters, especially after a victory, should have every right to connect to people of the audience that do share their same faith. And I feel that that is what Ben is rightfully doing.

I also think that more of the reasons that people dislike Ben is simply because of the fact that he's risen to the top. Not too many people had bad things to say about him before the firtst Edgar fight.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:58 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Ok then.

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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Do you consider the UFC a political business establishment?

The fact remains, Bud Light, and Harley Davidson are usng their agreement with the UFC as a means of promoting a consumer product, not a political agenda.
Are you trying somehow to disconnect political and financial affairs? Politics is everywhere, and I mean everywhere, specially in business. Politics is just part of our daily lives. When you tell your mom her food is delicious when in fact she oversalted it that day, you are being politcal. So yes. UFC, Dana and all the promoters and whoever else you name are political.
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I will reiterate how easily combustible the subject of religion is. By thanking "god" and saying in a very animated fashion that "I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST" after each victry, Henderson is implying that there is a god and that he can fight at such a high level "because of HIM". I find that notion personally offensive, as someone who rejects the idea of an omnipotent god and as someone who rejects the divine legitimacy of the Bible. I get that the idea of Christianity is to "spread the word" but religion (like one's sex life) and public life should not be symbiotic, they should be seperate. Henderson has every right to be a Christian and to practice his fath or thank his god. In private.
He utilizes a different operational system than yours and you are not interested in understanding (understanding I emphasize, you don't need to accept) because you have your own truth. He is praising his God because that is who he gets power from where others rely on a horse shoe. When religious fighters thank God for the victory, it doesn't mean God helped him to kick somebody's ass, but to thank for the opportunity of making a good job. The subject is combustible for those who are intolerants. You are being intolerant, Ari. Let the guy be. Actually nobody needs to be right or wrong about the Universe. We know very little and thats a fact you can count on.

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The UFC enjoys a reputation as being a secular, apolitical establishmnt that draws from a diverse crowd across the political, cultural, and religious spectrum. Allowing such vibrant expressions of faith that Ben Henderson engage in could endanger this status and possibly put the UFC in a bad light.
Wrong. Although politics is everywhere, as mentioned, itīs the freedom of speech that allows more and more people to congregate and coexist.

Religion is a personal choice but it is rather a collective thing. If you and others want to say religion should always be kept in privacy lets cancel all Christmas and Thanksgiving advertisements and never say Merry Christmas again, until there, either we accept other people beliefs or we are to blame for our own hypocrisy.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:24 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I really can't understand why people dislike him, well apart from the whole religion thing, which to me is a stupid reason to dislike a fighter. Even still, there are plenty of fighters out there who are religious and people don't have a grudge against them; matt hughes is deeply religious, no-one as a problem with him. Most, if not, all Brazilian fighters are fiercely religious, that never gets brought up, so I can't see why benson gets so much crap about it. He seems a nice enough guy, so aye someone could enlighten me?
I dislike any fighter who thanks their magic sky daddy when they win. They never give him the finger when they lose. A lot of the other fighters are religious but not all of them thank the magic sky daddy.

For the record I hate Matt Hughes too.

I don't like any religious people because they fuel a culture of ignorance and superstition. I would just ignore them if it wasn't for the fact that some of them actually attack science because it makes their religions look silly.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:27 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Do you consider the UFC a political business establishment?

The fact remains, Bud Light, and Harley Davidson are usng their agreement with the UFC as a means of promoting a consumer product, not a political agenda. I will reiterate how easily combustible the subject of religion is. By thanking "god" and saying in a very animated fashion that "I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST" after each victry, Henderson is implying that there is a god and that he can fight at such a high level "because of HIM". I find that notion personally offensive, as someone who rejects the idea of an omnipotent god and as someone who rejects the divine legitimacy of the Bible. I get that the idea of Christianity is to "spread the word" but religion (like one's sex life) and public life should not be symbiotic, they should be seperate. Henderson has every right to be a Christian and to practice his fath or thank his god. In private.

The UFC enjoys a reputation as being a secular, apolitical establishmnt that draws from a diverse crowd across the political, cultural, and religious spectrum. Allowing such vibrant expressions of faith that Ben Henderson engage in could endanger this status and possibly put the UFC in a bad light.

And no worries buddy No offense taken. I just didn't want you to get the wrong idea about me.
I totally agree with all of this. If only the site would allow me to rep you again.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:36 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Fair enough, I'll concede Henderson's right to expression only on the grounds of free speech but I still do not agree with it.

Quote:
Are you trying somehow to disconnect political and financial affairs? Politics is everywhere, and I mean everywhere, specially in business. Politics is just part of our daily lives. When you tell your mom her food is delicious when in fact she oversalted it that day, you are being politcal. So yes. UFC, Dana and all the promoters and whoever else you name are political.
Am I trying to disconnect political and financial affairs? Uhhhhh, no. I'm trying to show how they connect.
I'm pretty sure you knew exactly what I meant when I referenced the term "political" in regards to my argument. The UFC does not endorse a specific political platform. To my knowledge, neither do Bud Light, Harley Davidson, or Metro PCS. If they do (and many of them may), then they don't use the UFC to promote that platform. They just want you to buy their product.

As far as what you're talking about goes, I agree. Otherwise guys like Nick Diaz and Chael Sonnen wouldn't be getting title shots. But that is not what I was talking about.

Quote:
He utilizes a different operational system than yours and you are not interested in understanding (understanding I emphasize, you don't need to accept) because you have your own truth. He is praising his God because that is who he gets power from where others rely on a horse shoe. When religious fighters thank God for the victory, it doesn't mean God helped him to kick somebody's ass, but to thank for the opportunity of making a good job. The subject is combustible for those who are intolerants. You are being intolerant, Ari. Let the guy be. Actually nobody needs to be right or wrong about the Universe. We know very little and thats a fact you can count on.
I actually understand where Henderson is coming from. I just don't agree with his point of view. Religion is a combustible subject bcause it's an extremely personal and private matter. I am absolutely not being intolerant. If I were intolerant I would be criticizing Henderson because he's a Christian. I am criticizing Henderson because he is using the spotlight of the UFC as a place of public faith expression without regard to the potential consequences it has for himself and his immediate employer. Not because he is a Christian.


Quote:
Wrong. Although politics is everywhere, as mentioned, itīs the freedom of speech that allows more and more people to congregate and coexist.
Good grief, take off your rose colored glasses, man.

Freedom of speech is a double edged sword which can have tremendous consequences. It allows us to coexist but it also can cause massive upheaval and conflict. I have every right to walk up to someone and call them an offensive, derogatory term. Trust me, I've done it. I've also been punched in the face as a result, and I've done the same to other people. I'm all for freedom of speech and individual rights, but I recognize as someone who holds these rights that I am responsible for how I use them and I need to understand the consequences that result in the use of my rights. Regardless of whether or not I view it as appropriate, Henderson has every right to talk about his magical man in the sky after his fights. But he also needs to recognize that if and when he does so, there are potential consequences that will follow, many of them not good.
Jon Jones is a prime example that everyone is well aware of. He started out as a humble young man that the fans absolutely loved. When he opened his mouth and said some really, really dumb shit and did some even dumber things, look what happened? He's one of the most reviled athletes in the sport right now. I'm not saying the exact same thing will happen to Henderson because it's a completely different example, but it has the ability to turn into an unpleasent situation if he isn't careful.

Let's say Frank Mir, an avowed atheist, wins the Heavyweight title and slams religion in his post fight speech or says "I would like to thank science for giving me the ability to evolve". What happens then?


Quote:
Religion is a personal choice but it is rather a collective thing. If you and others want to say religion should always be kept in privacy lets cancel all Christmas and Thanksgiving advertisements and never say Merry Christmas again, until there, either we accept other people beliefs or we are to blame for our own hypocrisy.
I agree that religion is a personal choice. Which is why I have a huge problem with the idea of evangelism. It's up to the individual to decide what he or she believes as they mature in life. If they decide that they believe in god, great. Just don't try and convert me. I'm 26 years old and I've been there and done that with religion (I grew up Mormon although I was an outcast because my mother is Honduran). But each person has the right to believe what they want.

I disagree about religion being a collective thing. Look at how many wars have been fought and how many lives have been lost as a result of religion, specifically regarding the Abrahamic religions who essentially believe in the same "god" but have fundamental differences when it comes to practice and history. As for your other remarks, I'm totally fine with people not saying "Merry Christmas" and saying "Happy Holidays" instead. That wouldn't bother me at all. You'll also notice that most of the TV ads that air for the holiday season have very little to do with the Christian interpretation of Christmas.

If you want everyone to practice their religion publicly, and they have that right, then let them. And watch the shitstorm that will follow.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:46 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Good on Henderson to thank whoever he feels he needs to thank, trainers, family, God. He put in the training, time and energy. You all can sit there and listen to what he has to say or not, up to you. If you don't like him because he thanks God, don't buy his PPV's. Otherwise it's a pretty stupid complaint...
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:18 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Henderson has every right to talk about his magical man in the sky after his fights. But he also needs to recognize that if and when he does so, there are potential consequences that will follow, many of them not good.
If the guy really has that faith in his God, do you think he really cares what "bad thing" could happen to him by merely expressing himself?

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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
I agree that religion is a personal choice. Which is why I have a huge problem with the idea of evangelism. It's up to the individual to decide what he or she believes as they mature in life. If they decide that they believe in god, great. Just don't try and convert me. I'm 26 years old and I've been there and done that with religion (I grew up Mormon although I was an outcast because my mother is Honduran). But each person has the right to believe what they want.
So leave them do it.
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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
I disagree about religion being a collective thing. Look at how many wars have been fought and how many lives have been lost as a result of religion, specifically regarding the Abrahamic religions who essentially believe in the same "god" but have fundamental differences when it comes to practice and history.
So how exactly these wars were fought if religion is not a collective thing? Lots of one man armies each one defending his particular view? Why there are temples or churches for if itīs not collective?
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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
As for your other remarks, I'm totally fine with people not saying "Merry Christmas" and saying "Happy Holidays" instead. That wouldn't bother me at all. You'll also notice that most of the TV ads that air for the holiday season have very little to do with the Christian interpretation of Christmas.
And this is just a political and hypocritic way to sell products to all religions or non believers using a covered Christian celebration. Show me the money, no matter what you believe...
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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
If you want everyone to practice their religion publicly, and they have that right, then let them. And watch the shitstorm that will follow.
You are starting the shitstorm. And yourself has the power to stop this by slowly growing tolerace in your heart. I have worked in the Far East and in the Middle East along people who believe in many different things and I have seen all sort of public displays of faith, includind people starving in a fast during Ramadan or kneeling in public to praise their Gods and I called many of those people friends.
Let people be as long as they are not trying to hurt you.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:20 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MMATycoon View Post
I don't like any religious people because they fuel a culture of ignorance and superstition.
Oh the irony of this quote....
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:25 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Oh the irony of this quote....
How is it ironic? Just because you don't agree with what I said doesn't mean it comes from ignorance and superstition.
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