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Old 04-27-2013, 03:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by _redruM_ View Post
What I'm saying is he has never had to face someone truly elite, in their prime, who truly belongs in the division. Can you argue that? Also, I'm not just saying it after the fact, I've been saying it all along. In fact, the only advantage you could really argue any of his opponents having over him is experience, but that is thoroughly nullified by every other disadvantage working against them.

The bottom line is, I can honestly say I have never seen Jones win an equally matched bout purely by way of being the better fighter.
But, how can you fault Jones for that? A lack of competition shouldn't negatively reflect on his career. Chuck never fought a single great striker but he's considered one of the best LHW's for knocking out grapplers.

When you step up the level of the game like Jones has, it makes everyone look worse in comparison. If anything, that should be a credit to him which is hard for me to say because I hate him as a person.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah, see regardless of Jones resume it's still twice the resume as the number #1 guy. Anderson Silva fought 6 guys that have been cut from the UFC all during his title reign. Jon Jones has fought more UFC champions and done so in less fights. Jones has also never lost a decision, been stopped in a fight, and aside from a terrible DQ would be unbeaten right now.

Also I don't know where this "shallow LHW" division comes from. Are they old...yep but you know what's worse than being old, being a top five ranked fighter with one win over another top ten guy (Bisping). Fighters can walk into the top ten at MW, guys can go from prelims to contenders practically overnight while at LHW it took years before people took Gustaf seriously. Davis had to be unblemished. Bader and Nog needed massive upsets to return to the rankings.

You can argue that Jones doesn't deserve the claim of p4p best in the world, but you can't then call Anderson the number 1. The reality is one guy has been on a long winning streak and defeated the best of the best in their primes and that's GSP.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Stupidist thread ever. You have basically just gave an excuse for the whole devision. Jon Jones is a LH fighter, he is not a heavyweight and doesn't come close to there size. At the weigh inn's last night middleweight Chael was alot bigger than Jones. Jones has height and reach, he's got the perfect fighting physique and if guys are smaller than hi
Then that's not his fault. Jones is 230 tops, half of the names you mentioned are heavier than that.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeHawk View Post
But, how can you fault Jones for that? A lack of competition shouldn't negatively reflect on his career.
Shouldn't it? Tyson's greatness was long debated because of the competition he faced. Like I said, I don't fault Jones. I just really find it hard to measure how great he really is, given the state of the LHW division.

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Chuck never fought a single great striker but he's considered one of the best LHW's for knocking out grapplers.
He's considered one of the best, because he was dominant over other guys who were also in their prime and who belonged in the division. At least, as far as the old breed went. Jones is one of the new breed which, unfortunately, the rest of the LHW division is sorely lacking.

Chuck's stock also dropped a bit after the first loss to Rampage, and more so after the second.

Quote:
When you step up the level of the game like Jones has, it makes everyone look worse in comparison. If anything, that should be a credit to him which is hard for me to say because I hate him as a person.
I don't deny he's above everyone else right now. All I'm saying is that we still don't know how good he really is, because nearly all of his fights have been against guys undersized, over the hill, or both.

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Yeah, see regardless of Jones resume it's still twice the resume as the number #1 guy. Anderson Silva fought 6 guys that have been cut from the UFC all during his title reign. Jon Jones has fought more UFC champions and done so in less fights. Jones has also never lost a decision, been stopped in a fight, and aside from a terrible DQ would be unbeaten right now.
That's a good point, and I do consider Anderson's run a little overrated, as well. I've never been too impressed with the UFC MW division, either. It's full of guys who are either great at 1 thing but lacking in others like Chael, or moderately good at everything but great in nothing like Bisping. I still think Vitor is the biggest threat in that division. Haven't seen enough of Weidman to be convinced, either way.

Anderson, however, has at least gone up and fought larger guys, doing things never done to them before in the process. He also doesn't regularly enjoy a 10 inch reach advantage over his opponents, or fight natural welterweights, aside from maybe Marquardt.

But yes, both guys are big fish in somewhat small ponds. You'd have to see Anderson as more proven, though.

Quote:
Also I don't know where this "shallow LHW" division comes from. Are they old...yep but you know what's worse than being old, being a top five ranked fighter with one win over another top ten guy (Bisping). Fighters can walk into the top ten at MW, guys can go from prelims to contenders practically overnight while at LHW it took years before people took Gustaf seriously. Davis had to be unblemished. Bader and Nog needed massive upsets to return to the rankings.
I actually think that's partly to do with the UFC doing a better job of trying to build guys up at LHW. Probably because they know how bad of shape it's in. Bader was given favorable match ups for quite a while, as were Davis and Gustaffson. When Davis finally had to face a legit guy, he lost. Gustaffson has never really impressed me. Another guy who seems to be alright in everything but doesn't excel at anything. Slightly above average striking, maybe, but he did go the distance rather unimpressively with a beat up/washed up Thiago Silva.

The most impressive win for Glover is over a clearly unmotivated Rampage who has been on the down slide for quite a while.

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Originally Posted by Ludinator View Post
Stupidist thread ever. You have basically just gave an excuse for the whole devision. Jon Jones is a LH fighter, he is not a heavyweight and doesn't come close to there size.
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I would suggest to you not to call something stupid while misspelling 3 words in as many sentences.

Quote:
At the weigh inn's last night middleweight Chael was alot bigger than Jones.
Did we watch the same weigh in? Chael looked more full simply because he didn't have to cut as much weight. Jon has a much bigger frame, and the size difference will be more obvious when we see them tomorrow.

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Jones is 230 tops, half of the names you mentioned are heavier than that.
Really? Who on that list cuts more weight? Rampage, maybe, but that's largely due to getting too out of shape between fights. Jones has long speculated an eventual move to Heavyweight, even before he became the champ.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:41 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Chael was rumoured to be walking around at 240 for this fight.
Rashad also cuts more weight than Jon Jones, as does Rampage and Bader.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Completely understand where the original poster is going with this thread, but can't help but feel as though all negative aspects of JJ's run in the division have been highlighted to the hilt without acknowledging the good accomplishments made. Essentially it's the worst possible way to at to look at JJ's UFC career.

I enjoy watching his fights and respect him greatly as a fighter and athlete but i wouldn't call myself a Jon Jones fan, that said I'd prefer to see his career more like this;

Pre-UFC
Jon Jones was only a state champion wrestler, barely registering a blip in high level UFC terms. Between April and July 2008 Jon Jones goes 6-0 in an incredible 4 months spell, although he does not beat any named opponents it's a noteworthy start, all wins are by stoppage.

UFC 87 - Andre Gusmao
Jon Jones' debut is against another undefeated prospect, Gusmao was actually being refered to as a favourite according to a thread on this forum. Good debut win.

UFC 94 - Stephan Bonnar
An impressive debut lands Jones against veteran Stephan Bonnar who was on a 2-fight winning streak at the time, dominant performance by the 7-0 Jones. Excellent win.

UFC 100 - Jake O'Brien
11-2 former Heavyweight prospect, despite this, in restorpsect a step down from his previous opponent. Decent win.

TUF 10 Finale - Matt Hamill
Hamill was 7-2 on a 2-fight winning streak which included a 1st round KO of Mark Munoz, his only loses coming to Bisping and Franklin. Make no mistake this was an appropriate step up for Jon Jones' 4th fight in the UFC, although it was an odd outcome he was dominant in this fight over a very crafty and talented fighter.

UFC Live - Brandon Vera
Jon Jones headlines over Junior Dos Santos in what is both their 5th UFC fights. Dominant performance over a decent name in Vera. Good win.

At this point it's clear Jon Jones is very talented and should have perhaps went against a top-5 guy to really see where he's at, however they gave him...

UFC Live - Matyushenko
...Another headline slot against another crafty vet, as expected Jon Jones was dominant and ended the fight in a similar manner he did against Vera. Solid yet fully expected win.

UFC 126 - Ryan Bader
Excellent fight between two undefeated and seemingly equally talented fighters, Jones was the favourite but not overwhelmingly, Bader had shown big power and good wrestling. Other than the afore mentioned fight against a top-5 fighter this was the only fight that really made sense for both. Very good win, cementing him at #1 prospect at LHW.

UFC 128 - Mauricio Rua
Dominant performance in a title fight, little else to say.

If you look at his list of opponents from this fight onwards it's really a who's-who of elite LHWs in MMA, there's no question Jon Jones' run from first to last has been extremely impressive.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:57 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Chuck never fought a single great striker
Overeem, Guy Mezger, Wandy (not a GREAT striker, but he's known for his ferocious striking), Pelé perhaps.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Jones is easily one of the best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen already and he's just getting warmed up.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:45 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Jones is easily one of the best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen already and he's just getting warmed up.
I really, really dislike Jones, but I have to agree with this.
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:16 AM   #20 (permalink)
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the problem here is that there is no way to prove or disprove if someone belongs on an imaginary list.

you want him to prove that he belongs as a top p4p fighter by being better than a similarly skilled fighter in his prime. this isn't possible.

no one in his division is a top p4p fighter. if he comes out on top in a close fight, it is proof against him being #2. if someone in his division starts to climb the p4p list, he will fight them long before they can reach a high rank, if only because there is no one else for him to fight.


if he fights someone else on the P4P list, his choices are against a smaller 38-40 year old(see the excuses forming already?)or a bigger heavyweight(heavyweights don't belong on p4p lists)who is not even listed as top 5 on p4p list.
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