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Old 04-27-2013, 12:23 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BOOM View Post
Jones is easily one of the best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen already and he's just getting warmed up.
Now I'm pretty excited for the fight tonight.

It really is a treat having the opportunity to watch guys like Jones and Silva fight.

A lot of people are saying JBJ shouldn't be #2, but they aren't saying who should be.

GSP, presumably? You could easily point out major flaws in his opponents as well.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
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the problem here is that there is no way to prove or disprove if someone belongs on an imaginary list.

you want him to prove that he belongs as a top p4p fighter by being better than a similarly skilled fighter in his prime. this isn't possible.

no one in his division is a top p4p fighter. if he comes out on top in a close fight, it is proof against him being #2. if someone in his division starts to climb the p4p list, he will fight them long before they can reach a high rank, if only because there is no one else for him to fight.


if he fights someone else on the P4P list, his choices are against a smaller 38-40 year old(see the excuses forming already?)or a bigger heavyweight(heavyweights don't belong on p4p lists)who is not even listed as top 5 on p4p list.


Jones has already cleaned out the LHW division and made it look easy. The streak he has had plus making his opponents look like amateurs who were all more experienced in the cage and former champions themselves is not something that you see very often in MMA. He also has accomplished this by the age of 25, making this feat nothing short of incredible.

Jones is not just one of best P4P fighters this sport has ever seen for massacring a good chunk of the best fighters it has had to offer him, he's a rare phenomenon that will go down as one of MMA's greatest legends. He will be right up there with Silva, GSP and Fedor when it's all said and done, you can bank on it.
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by _redruM_ View Post
Which is exactly my point. An injured, undersized, late replacement Vitor Belfort nearly pulled it off. What would happen if he finally faced an elite, athletic LHW in their prime who can put it all together? Until we know the answer to that, I don't think he should be rated so highly.
That fighter doesn't exist so Jones will continue to dominate the paper thin LHW division for many years.

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Last edited by Sambo de Amigo : 04-27-2013 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Adding to my point
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:21 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Chael was rumoured to be walking around at 240 for this fight.
Rashad also cuts more weight than Jon Jones, as does Rampage and Bader.
The highest I ever heard Chael walking around at MW was 217. If he's really at 240 for this fight, it's because he ballooned up to that weight and it isn't going to be very effective. Make no mistake, Jones is the naturally larger man by a fair margin.

Both Rashad and Bader carry excess weight. Rashad always could have made 185, while Bader probably couldn't but still has a noticeably smaller frame. Rampage is the only argument, but he still has a much smaller frame, huge reach disadvantage and hasn't been elite in quite some time. Even in his prime, he was pretty one dimensional. Another guy from the old guard.


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If you look at his list of opponents from this fight onwards it's really a who's-who of elite LHWs in MMA, there's no question Jon Jones' run from first to last has been extremely impressive.
I understand it may seem like I'm downplaying his accomplishments, but the fact of the matter is the only guy on that list you could argue being in their prime was Bader. A guy who was never really elite and managed to do what no one else had done in 5 years -- losing to Tito.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
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A lot of people are saying JBJ shouldn't be #2, but they aren't saying who should be.

GSP, presumably? You could easily point out major flaws in his opponents as well.
GSP has fought guys like Koscheck. A motivated guy in his prime with a distinct knockout power advantage, and the athleticism and wrestling pedigree to counter GSP's greatest strength. Jones has never had to face a challenge like that.

Even looking on the horizon, there are all kinds of challengers for GSP at WW. Guys like Hendricks, Macdonald, Ellenberger who are young, huge, motivated, all possess freakish power and oustanding wrestling pedigrees and are pretty much worst possible match-ups for GSP. Then you have elite grapplers like Maia. By contrast, who does Jones have on the horizon? Pretty much no one he doesn't have nearly every advantage over.

I'm not saying Jones isn't a great fighter. I'm just saying we really don't know how great, because he still hasn't been truly tested. And I'm not sure how anyone can argue that.

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Originally Posted by Sambo de Amigo View Post
That fighter doesn't exist so Jones will continue to dominate the paper thin LHW division for many years.

Pretty much, yes.

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Is there an argument here, or should we just settle for the tired, old internet meme?
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Parlaying your advantages into actually making them effective IS a part of being a good fighter. Your op is basically like saying "Anderson only wins because he's faster and has superior reflexes. Let him face someone with those same attibutes, THEN we'll see how good he is." "GSP only wins because he has a faster double than the rest of the division. Let him fight someone who equals that THEN we'll see how good he is.".

The aspect of Jon Jones you are questioning isn't how good of a fighter he is, you're questioning his fortitude. If we were measuring who has the P4P highest will to win, then there would be some question marks because he hasn't been tested. But because he's dominated most all of the best fighters in his weightclass, then I think it would be safe to say that that would be apart of establishing his legucy.

Otherwise, all you're basically saying is "Well, he's only the best because he's better than everyone else. That doesn't mean anything!".
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:16 PM   #28 (permalink)
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True that Jones hasn't been tested, but that is an indication of dominance. He's fought a bunch of top ten guys and they didn't stand a chance. He makes the division look weak because he's so dominant.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:28 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I agree with a lot of what you said. Jones doesn't belong at LHW. He overpowers literally everyone at LHW. We won't see what Jones is really made of until he moves up and faces people like DC, JDS and of course Cain who I personally think will rip Jones' head off.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by trimco View Post
Now I'm pretty excited for the fight tonight.

It really is a treat having the opportunity to watch guys like Jones and Silva fight.

A lot of people are saying JBJ shouldn't be #2, but they aren't saying who should be.

GSP, presumably? You could easily point out major flaws in his opponents as well.
This whole P4P discussion is just mental masturbation and I really don't think that the LHW should really even be included in that discussion, they're too close to being the same size, especially with the weight cut that some of these guys pull-off. I'm thinking this matter is for the lighter guys if we have to keep having this discussion in the first place.
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