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Old 04-29-2013, 02:06 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Canadian Psycho View Post
Oh, yay... another retarded thread about the retarded concept of P4P King wherein retarded fans call other retarded fans the worst fans in the history of MMA and dismiss the accomplishments of world champions whilst sitting in their retarded parents' basements.

Glad some of you are keeping the tradition of retardation alive!
QFT

also, derp. (I'm all about tradition)

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Originally Posted by jonnyg4508 View Post
So in other words you are just saying GSP is bad for MMA.
No, he's saying he's great for MMA, as he's an idiot filter; one merely has to read people's opinions on him to gauge a posters idiot level. (this works with most champions)
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:13 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dlxrevolution View Post
The aspect of Jon Jones you are questioning isn't how good of a fighter he is, you're questioning his fortitude.
I'm questioning the quality of his competition. Once again, I don't doubt that Jones is a great fighter, but the fact is the LHW division is in really sad shape and a lot of the guys he's fought don't even belong there.

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Originally Posted by mastodon2222 View Post
True that Jones hasn't been tested, but that is an indication of dominance. He's fought a bunch of top ten guys and they didn't stand a chance. He makes the division look weak because he's so dominant.
He makes the division look weak because it is weak and he's one of the very few legit LHWs in his prime.

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Originally Posted by rabakill View Post
the problem here is two-fold;

first of all if you look through the mma rankings for LHW (globally) there are very few guys reaching their prime that would ever be legitimate contenders. Shogun, Rampage, Chael Sonnen all these guys are far past their prime. Other weight classes have a lot of younger contenders that actually pose a threat but at LHW the field is extremely thin in terms of young up and coming contenders, realistically we have Gustaffson and that's it. So Jones is going to be getting spoonfed over the hill guys or fighters that don't belong at LHW. There is no antithesis to Jones, there is no Rory Mcdonald, there is no Anthony Pettis, no Chris Weidman to challenge Jones. Jones could realistically stay champ for a decade because the LHW division is going through a generational change and there's only one guy that's a legit contender.

second of all Jones is a monster of a fighter, he is extremely skilled, very tough and extremely physically gifted. He's made every one of his opponents look like amateurs.

So you get a compounded issue where Jones is extremely talented, physically gifted and reaching his prime in a division of virtually no legitimate young contenders. So we won't really know how good he is for a while until he actually fights a young guy like himself that is peaking. Guys like Phil Davis are perennial gatekeepers even if the division was thin so Jones gets the best of both cases.
Yes, that's pretty much what I've been saying this whole time. You've summed it up nicely.

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Originally Posted by Kreed View Post
really? which elite welterweight not named hughes has gsp finished?
What does finishing have to do with anything? GSP does not have natural knockout power, and everyone knows he has been much more conservative since the Serra loss. He isn't a finisher. Nonetheless, he's thoroughly dominated every opponent, many of whom are/were legit.

Let's look at it this way. Most people downplay GSP's second win over Penn -- and for good reason, it was somewhat of a mismatch -- yet at least Penn at the time was the champ, motivated, in his prime, the former champ of that division and on a huge tear. Not even the MWs Jones has faced have had all of that going for them. For crying out loud, Chael was coming off a decisive loss and hadn't even competed at LHW in 6 years. He was never even very successful there, let alone a former champ. Vitor also hadn't competed there in 6 years and came in on short notice with a broken hand. Just think about how absurd that is. You won't see that kind of thing in a competitive division.

How dominant do you think GSP would look against a Diego Sanchez, or Penn for a third time? He might even get some more finishes. It's difficult to even make a comparison, because equivalent guys to Rampage or Shogun don't even exist in the WW division anymore, nevermind in the title hunt.

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And who has aldo really beat other than faber and edgar.
Everyone who has challenged him. Granted, that division is still young, but at least none of those guys were out of shape 40 year old bantamweights with multiple nagging injuries and a serious lack of cardio. Mendes, Florian and Edgar were all legit wins. Especially Edgar.


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Originally Posted by SmackyBear View Post
Threads like this are always weird to read. It's crazy how so many MMA fans are so big into retroactively discrediting the losers of a fight so they don't have to praise the winners.
Well firstly, considering my join date and relative post count, I think it would be a stretch to say I'm big on it. And like I said, it isn't retroactive. This has been on my mind for quite some time. Literally every single Jones fight I've been thinking to myself "Too bad he's a middleweight" or "Well, it might have been competitive 6 years ago...". As I've said, I'm not trying to drag Jones through the mud. I don't really have any personal issues with him. I just thought this was an interesting topic for discussion. I'm not sure why so many people react with so much blatant hostility, foaming at the mouth and flinging insults every which way, but I suppose that is par for the course on the internet.

Despite all that, I've still yet to see a single solid argument against my assertion.

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Before Jon Jones won the title, Shogun, Rampage, Rashad and Lyoto regularly made top 10 P4P lists. And I don't mean years before Jones won the title, I mean within a few months of it. Jones smashes them and they're tomato cans.
I don't recall Rampage being on any top p4p lists. That being said, the reason for the others is simple. They were big names with good streaks, and most people didn't know any better at the time. Thankfully, it should be much more obvious to people now just how impressive Rashad beating Forrest for the title was. Most of those names were rated higher than they should have been simply because they were household names people liked to cheer for, and because even then the division was too shallow to properly measure their overall relevance. That's a whole other discussion, though.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:26 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I came into this convo late so please excuse if this has already been said.

The same thing can easily be said for Anderson, who is my favorite fighter.

I THINK these guys are just that good man.

I made a poll about superfights and the reason I did is is because I wanted to see if others felt the way I did ...which is wanting Bones to fight Cain so we can REALLY see him tested.

Glover will be a good test if he can pass a few more of his own, same with Gus. There's still lots of time.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:05 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Great stuff, _redruM_ - I think along those same lines, as well. And it's not to take away from fighters skill level, either (AS, GSP, and JBJ are feckin' MMA gods)- it's just that I see the top 3 P4P guys as being pretty much interchangeable. It depends on how you view styles, competition level, and just how you personally translate what "P4P" means exactly. People shouldn't get all pissy about it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:55 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by _redruM_ View Post
I'm questioning the quality of his competition. Once again, I don't doubt that Jones is a great fighter, but the fact is the LHW division is in really sad shape and a lot of the guys he's fought don't even belong there.
That's rubbish. Jon Jones has beaten a whole heap of immensely talented fighters. He's not only looking good because the competition sucks, because if you can tell me without breaking into laughter that Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and even Ryan Bader suck, you don't know what you're talking bout.

There's a trend going on on MMA forums recently that really is starting to grate, and making me become a less regular contributor, and it's the trend of doing anything to diminish a fighters achievements, saying anything to attempt to form an argument against someone, it's bullshit. Jon Jones is the greatest LHW in history. Other than Anderson Silva, no-one is putting world class fighters away with regularity like Jon Jones. The only fighter he has failed to finish in 11 fights is Rashad Evans, and when you consider who he's fought that is so impressive.

Also, forget the record, the run down, who he's fought. Watch his ******* fights. Jon Jones is an absolute destroyer. He toys with experienced, immensely talented fighters, and makes it look like the easiest, most natural thing in the world. He's the full package. His striking is incredible, he beat one of the best wrestlers in MMA at his own game, and has submissions. Even attempting to discredit a fighter with the ability of Jones just defies logic.

Also, if you'd have told me 4 years ago that someone would come into the division and finish Shogun, Rampage, Machida and Bader in the space of a year, I'd have laughed at you, but Jones has done just that. He is on a par with Anderson Silva right now, and he's only 24 years old. How damn good is Jon Jones going to be at 27? He could quite easily go down as one of the greatest fighters not only in MMA history, but in combat sports history. Jon Jones is a phenom, and how anyone can begin to attempt to discredit his achievements confuses the hell out of me. What the hell has this forum come to?
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:30 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Danm2501 View Post
That's rubbish. Jon Jones has beaten a whole heap of immensely talented fighters. He's not only looking good because the competition sucks, because if you can tell me without breaking into laughter that Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and even Ryan Bader suck, you don't know what you're talking bout.

There's a trend going on on MMA forums recently that really is starting to grate, and making me become a less regular contributor, and it's the trend of doing anything to diminish a fighters achievements, saying anything to attempt to form an argument against someone, it's bullshit. Jon Jones is the greatest LHW in history. Other than Anderson Silva, no-one is putting world class fighters away with regularity like Jon Jones. The only fighter he has failed to finish in 11 fights is Rashad Evans, and when you consider who he's fought that is so impressive.

Also, forget the record, the run down, who he's fought. Watch his ******* fights. Jon Jones is an absolute destroyer. He toys with experienced, immensely talented fighters, and makes it look like the easiest, most natural thing in the world. He's the full package. His striking is incredible, he beat one of the best wrestlers in MMA at his own game, and has submissions. Even attempting to discredit a fighter with the ability of Jones just defies logic.

Also, if you'd have told me 4 years ago that someone would come into the division and finish Shogun, Rampage, Machida and Bader in the space of a year, I'd have laughed at you, but Jones has done just that. He is on a par with Anderson Silva right now, and he's only 24 years old. How damn good is Jon Jones going to be at 27? He could quite easily go down as one of the greatest fighters not only in MMA history, but in combat sports history. Jon Jones is a phenom, and how anyone can begin to attempt to discredit his achievements confuses the hell out of me. What the hell has this forum come to?
Excellent post.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:34 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I think he'll be the G.O.A.T for awhile but not too long. This sport is evolving so fast. As it becomes more popular and lucrative, more people will be interested in it. So the freak athletes that should be playing in Basketball, Football etc may start going into MMA instead.

There will be someone even better than Jones one day. And he'll be facing and beating even better competition.
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:17 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Jones finally fights an actual LHW of a similar size -- though he still had nearly every advantage -- and barely squeaks by, being held up by two people as he exits the octagon. I loved how in the lead up to this fight they kept drilling it into people's heads that Gustaffson is half an inch taller, while conveniently avoiding the fact that Jones still had a significant 5.5 inch reach advantage. This fight made it more apparent than ever that Jones is as good as his reach advantage, despite Dana White's claims that people would have to stop saying that if he won.

Jones is a good fighter, but I stand by my original assertion that calling him #1 p4p is silly.
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:32 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I figured these stupid threads would pop up again. I still think GSP is the best (regardless of how boring and safe he is). Just because it was a close fight doesnt mean Bones is only good with a huge reach advantage. Anyone ever thought Gus is just maybe really good? Jones pretty much smoked everyone, and then he came out on top in a war.
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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You can't fault a guy for his attributes or timing, but there's usually someone who will rise out of everyone to challenge the throne.

Glad we finally found someone. I had doubts myself, but it looks like Phil Davis taught Gus well...very well.
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