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Old 05-02-2013, 01:23 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Are you arguing that a fighter can break any rule in or out of the cage he or she wants so long as they are not ultimately victorious as a result of it? If that is not right, what are you arguing?

Never mind, I'm reading the wrong posts.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:23 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Same for Nick Diaz. I'm thinking he should have had an extra point or something, if you can come in in that kind of shape and fight that well while smoking weed that's some serious willpower.
you would be surprised by how many mma and bjj guys smoke weed. it really doesn't affect your cardio if you train hard. I smoke every day and then go to train and spar.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:28 PM   #53 (permalink)
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you would be surprised by how many mma and bjj guys smoke weed. it really doesn't affect your cardio if you train hard. I smoke every day and then go to train and spar.
Yeah it's far more impressive that he competes in triathlons. Way more extreme cardio then MMA.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:33 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GDPofDRB View Post
Are you arguing that a fighter can break any rule in or out of the cage he or she wants so long as they are not ultimately victorious as a result of it? If that is not right, what are you arguing?


People are claiming that even if it was an illegal elbow, it made no difference to the ultimate outcome. My response was that if we adopt that mindset, then why suspend fighters who test positive for steroids, marijuana, or elevated levels of testosterone if they ultimately lost their fights? After all, their drug use didn't effect the outcome of the fight.

I was knocking the idea of forgiving, excusing, or ignoring rule breaking when it bears no weight on the end result (not condoning it). Breaking the rules is breaking the rules, whether it occurs outside the cage or in. The idea that we can just brush aside in-cage infractions because they had no impact is nonsense, imo.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:41 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Right, I saw I was misreading from your response to previous posts.

What I'm getting at with the difference between in cage and out of cage violation differences is that they are both the same in that they are violations of the outlined rules, but very different in their nature and details.

I agree, there is no argument to be made that illegal actions in a fight should be allowed so long as they don't create an advantage. But in cage illegal actions really only becomes illegal if it is deemed as such by the in cage official or through an appeal through the governing body after the fight itself. Things like being over the contracted weight for a fight or failing to adhere to commission drug usage policy are procedural violations subject to discipline out side of subjective or assumed levels of violations that occur in almost every MMA contest.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:54 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Yeah it's far more impressive that he competes in triathlons. Way more extreme cardio then MMA.
You say that, and it is true, but a Triathlete would gas in a 3 round MMA fight..
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:55 PM   #57 (permalink)
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They're both contrary to the rules. No one is arguing that they're the exact same, but you can certainly make the comparison that if breaking the rules during a fight is okay if it's ultimately of no consequence, then breaking the rules outside of a fight must also be okay if it's ultimately of no consequence.

You can't just brush it off by saying they're different scenarios. That's a cop-out. We're talking about rule breaking and people having no problem with it because it made no difference. Last I checked, that wasn't the point of having rules.
I don't think there is any obvious brushing off of the rules going on here at all ... there are at least two phase of 'justice' when it comes to 'the rules'.

Phase 1: was there a rule violation?
Phase 3: if so, what is the prescribed punishment?
Potential other phases: How much did the rule violation effect the fight (ie: refs discretion, as in "The following acts constitute fouls in a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts and may result in penalties, at the discretion of the referee, if committed:")

So, there are rules against 12-6 elbows, and there are rules against 'eye gouging' for example.

If a fighter pokes their opponent in the eye, that is a foul, just like a 12-6 elbow is a foul, but the prescribed punishment is not simple 'stop the fight, you're disqualified, no questions asked." ... there is discretion allowed, and the ref can do anything from ignore that it happened, to calling time to allow the fighter to recover, to calling time and taking points off the offending fighter, to stopping the fight and calling for a decision based on current judges score cards, to stopping the fight and DQing the offender.

So, even assuming there was technically a 12-6 elbow thrown (and that's not obvious to me at all,) the ref was well within his right to ignore it given the situation (or he could have simply warned Jones about elbows if he though the elbows were questionable) ... what would have been more questionable would be if he had stopped the fight and DQed Jones.

Now, fair or not, getting caught with weed in your blood after a fight has stricter rules and prescribed punishments, so unfortunately while I would have no issue if Diaz had simply been given a warning, the rules did not allow for that (or did not allow for that easily. ie, without appeals, court cases, and lots of money.)

So, rules are great, and applying the rules evenly is even better ... but that applies to all phases of the rules, not just some phases of the rules (ie: pretending that the rules say 'here is a list of fouls, and if you commit a foul, you are disqualified" ... when in actuality the rules are much more nuanced that that.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:58 PM   #58 (permalink)
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You say that, and it is true, but a Triathlete would gas in a 3 round MMA fight..
Yeah grappling cardio and running cardio are very different animals lol. I played soccer and I wrestled. Sure it helps being in general "shape". But both require their levels of cardio.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:12 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I think the ref made the right call about the elbow not being a violation of the rule.

12 O-clock to 6 O-clock elbows, has they were originally and time and time again described, are not only being about a 90 degree angle but being brought down from the high 12 o-clock position, as in an elbow or at least fist raised high, like above the head, and brought straight down to the 6 O-clock position. They are described as ceiling to the floor elbows, implying their high originating position.

Looking at the two gif animations,, (edit that, I could of swore the OP had originally posted a gif of the elbow sequence, I'm assuming what I'm saying here was pointed out and it was switched with an image after the fact) (and edit again, the OP confirms he originally posted a gif about 6 or 7 posts down, but now, it is the .png we see today...)in the first two posts it's very clear to see the difference between short, what I would call 6 O-clock to 6 O-clock, 90 degree elbows and the brought down from high, true 12 O-clock to 6 O-clock elbows Jones landed on Hamill.

Now the part I don't know if it is or is not true is that they made the rule as a response to professional martial arts stone/brick/block breakers using the move to break large quantities of solid materials and the implications of using such moves on fighters in MMA matches.

I don't consider there to be a argument on this, imo there is no legitimacy to the complaints levied towards that one elbow.

In fact, I'm trying to find a this discussion somewhere, anywhere else on the web. Mmaforum.com is really the only place on the web I've seen this conversation take place, even onshitdog I haven't seen a thread about this. Fact that this thread is second only to a site called IllegalElbow.com that has a preview article about UFC 159 on a google search of illegal+elbow+sonnen+forum is enough that I'd shut this fradulent conversation down to the garbage section for the rep of this site.

Last edited by GDPofDRB : 05-02-2013 at 02:25 PM. Reason: :)
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GDPofDRB View Post
Right, I saw I was misreading from your response to previous posts.

What I'm getting at with the difference between in cage and out of cage violation differences is that they are both the same in that they are violations of the outlined rules, but very different in their nature and details.

I agree, there is no argument to be made that illegal actions in a fight should be allowed so long as they don't create an advantage. But in cage illegal actions really only becomes illegal if it is deemed as such by the in cage official or through an appeal through the governing body after the fight itself. Things like being over the contracted weight for a fight or failing to adhere to commission drug usage policy are procedural violations subject to discipline out side of subjective or assumed levels of violations that occur in almost every MMA contest.
Fair point. And I can respect that view. I'd also say that illegal activities inside the cage are a trickier matter in that most happen in the heat of the moment and are rarely intentional. Which is hardly the case with steroid use, etc.

But in the end, I take no issue with how things played out. As I said, if a fighter doesn't complain, I'm rarely inclined to do so on his behalf.
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