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UFC The Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) is a U.S.-based mixed martial arts organization, recognized as the largest MMA promotion in the world. The UFC is headquartered in Las Vegas, Nevada and is owned and operated by Zuffa, LLC. This promotion is responsible for solidifying the sport's postion in the history-books. UFC is currently undergoing a remarkable surge in popularity, along with greater mainstream media coverage. UFC programming can now be seen on FOX, FX, and FUEL TV in the United States, as well as in 35 other countries worldwide.

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Old 05-01-2013, 01:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I wouldn't be favoring such ideas if I didn't know so many examples from personal experience.

As for Occam's razor, that has to be the biggest piece of pseudoscientific nonsense on the internet. There is no statistical proof to back it whatsoever. It is nothing more than opinion with a sexy sciency name. According to that nonsense, the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth because .. duh, the simplest explanation has to be true. We're not falling off, it looks flat, therefore it is flat. Simple explanation is always true! All that complex stuff about round earth, gravitational pull, axis rotation and revolution ... too complex, that's just stupid!

The very premise of occam's razor is ridiculous. Just because it's simple it must be true. uh... how about no. Sometimes simple things are true. Sometimes complex things are true. It's common sense. Rate arguments on their own merit and logic, not simplicity, that is the lazy man's opinion.
You don't understand Occam's razor. The premise is not that the simplest explanation is true, its that considering all the data, the simplest explanation is the most likely. So considering all the proof we have of gravity and the shape of the earth, the simplest explanations are in fact the ones that we are using today and calling laws and theories in the scientific sense. The point is to avoid excessively convoluted theories full of supposition in favor of theories that explain something equally satisfactorily but are simpler. Scientific progress would grind to a standstill if scientists didn't tend toward this. The theories needed to explain how a flat earth could possibly work are far more convoluted than current gravitational round-earth theory, for example.

You have zero proof for your speculation (which is why its simply speculation). I'd say the simpler explanation (and the one lending the benefit of the doubt) is that they are not breaking the law. I'm not going to go down some rabbit hole of fraud conspiracy accusations with zero proof.

Why are we even talking about this, anyway? We all know the UFC pays guys bonuses above what they report to commissions which is not even illegal, but entering a criminal conspiracy with fighters on a regular basis? They're writing and cashing checks, they're leaving a paper trail FFS.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:04 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
The size of a company has nothing to do with how law abiding they are. If anything, the larger the corporation, the more liable it is to act immune to countries laws, bend or lobby them to suit themselves, and are generally sinkholes of corruption and collusion with individual officials via bribers er.. lobbyists.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...012/?mobile=nc

You really think Vegas casinos are built by honest joes scrounging together clean money from their piggybanks while paying 50%-70% in cumulative taxes? I suppose the quadrillions of dollars stashed away in untraceable tax havens like Cayman Islands, Switzerland, Bahamas etc. must be grandma's $10 a months savings added up slowly over the years.

How would the IRS know if a company takes some payments in such tax havens and then uses them to pay cash for it's expenses? They have policies of not handing over account information unless a terrorism etc. related warrants are produced you know. The US has asked such swiss/tax haven banks for blanket info many times, but they've always been refused.

I know some extremely wealthy and well placed people that do this and are rich because of it. Heck, there are countries like Russia, ex-Soviet countries, India etc. where the parallel tax-avoiding cash "black" economy is estimated to be many times larger than the actual on paper GDP of these countries.

Not saying it's right, but the difference can be as much as 50%-70% of the total when you calculate corporate tax, sales tax, luxury tax, income tax etc... this is larger than most companies' operating profit margin, it's not "a few extra bucks" and it's not for the employee it's for themselves. It might very well be the sole reason the Fertittas were able to turn the UFC around and make it so profitable where so many other big players have failed.
Don't forget one of the biggest tax havens on Earth INSIDE the US.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
You don't understand Occam's razor. The premise is not that the simplest explanation is true, its that considering all the data, the simplest explanation is the most likely. So considering all the proof we have of gravity and the shape of the earth, the simplest explanations are in fact the ones that we are using today and calling laws and theories in the scientific sense. The point is to avoid excessively convoluted theories full of supposition in favor of theories that explain something equally satisfactorily but are simpler. Scientific progress would grind to a standstill if scientists didn't tend toward this. The theories needed to explain how a flat earth could possibly work are far more convoluted than current gravitational round-earth theory, for example.

You have zero proof for your speculation (which is why its simply speculation). I'd say the simpler explanation (and the one lending the benefit of the doubt) is that they are not breaking the law. I'm not going to go down some rabbit hole of fraud conspiracy accusations with zero proof.

Why are we even talking about this, anyway? We all know the UFC pays guys bonuses above what they report to commissions which is not even illegal, but entering a criminal conspiracy with fighters on a regular basis? They're writing and cashing checks, they're leaving a paper trail FFS.
But before the discovery of satellites and circumnavigation, the earth's shape etc., people could and would have used Occam's razor to "prove" that flat earth was most likely. The fact that we later gained proof through circumnavigation etc. showed that yes, many times the more complex explanation is true.

In fact I would wager than most of today's science would have been rejected in the medieval era based on Occam's razor. Germs and microbes would and did sound preposterous based on "complexity" in a pre-microscope era and so on. As science rolled on and more tools of exploration became available, it was actually the more complex explanations that won out. There is no statistical merit to say that simpler explanations are more likely. Just opinion.

Of course I'm not going to prove 100% tax fraud based on speculation, but I'm not naive enough to completely discount a valid explanation when personal experience and circumstancial things point to it. The fact is that the gambling, liquor, tobacco, weapons, combat sports etc. industries in most countries are often linked with mafias, tax evasion, corruption etc. and it is actually more likely for them statistically to not be "squeaky clean", psuedoscience not withstanding.

I find that explanation a bit more easy to believe than believing that the top .1% of the world's athletes are getting their bones broken for the kind of money offered to pimply teenagers making fries.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:38 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
But before the discovery of satellites and circumnavigation, the earth's shape etc., people could and would have used Occam's razor to "prove" that flat earth was most likely. The fact that we later gained proof through circumnavigation etc. showed that yes, many times the more complex explanation is true.

In fact I would wager than most of today's science would have been rejected in the medieval era based on Occam's razor. Germs and microbes would and did sound preposterous based on "complexity" in a pre-microscope era and so on. As science rolled on and more tools of exploration became available, it was actually the more complex explanations that won out. There is no statistical merit to say that simpler explanations are more likely. Just opinion.

Of course I'm not going to prove 100% tax fraud based on speculation, but I'm not naive enough to completely discount a valid explanation when personal experience and circumstancial things point to it. The fact is that the gambling, liquor, tobacco, weapons, combat sports etc. industries in most countries are often linked with mafias, tax evasion, corruption etc. and it is actually more likely for them statistically to not be "squeaky clean", psuedoscience not withstanding.

I find that explanation a bit more easy to believe than believing that the top .1% of the world's athletes are getting their bones broken for the kind of money offered to pimply teenagers making fries.
Nothing is certain in science, theories are only valid until proven otherwise. But Occam's Razor is valid all the time. The simplest explanation is always the right one, at the time. It prevents things getting needlessly complex.

So it was right pre-microscope era, and then right again when microscopes were invented.

As for the tax situation, I'd bet the UFC bend every rule in the book without actually breaking any of them. All the big companies do it.

Been a lot of press in the UK about the likes of starbucks paying hardly any taxes because they were using loop holes to avoid it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:03 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Nothing is certain in science, theories are only valid until proven otherwise. But Occam's Razor is valid all the time. The simplest explanation is always the right one, at the time. It prevents things getting needlessly complex.

So it was right pre-microscope era, and then right again when microscopes were invented.

As for the tax situation, I'd bet the UFC bend every rule in the book without actually breaking any of them. All the big companies do it.

Been a lot of press in the UK about the likes of starbucks paying hardly any taxes because they were using loop holes to avoid it.
No, in the pre-microscopic era, germ theory was the MOST complex explanation. The theory relied on an entire world of life beyond sight, complete with nutritional dependencies on our systems, with "antibodies" to fight them. The whole thing was horrendously complex and implausible compared to "a couple of humors in your body are off". Yet germ theory ia true abd humora are false.

Thats the thing with occam's razor, you can always keep revising in hindsight to pretend it works.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:17 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:45 PM   #47 (permalink)
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No, in the pre-microscopic era, germ theory was the MOST complex explanation. The theory relied on an entire world of life beyond sight, complete with nutritional dependencies on our systems, with "antibodies" to fight them. The whole thing was horrendously complex and implausible compared to "a couple of humors in your body are off". Yet germ theory ia true abd humora are false.

Thats the thing with occam's razor, you can always keep revising in hindsight to pretend it works.
But thats the point of the theory. There are scientists out there that probably have all kinds of crazy theories, some of them may even turn out right. The microscopic life thing you mentioned could never have been proved without evidence. So the simplest explanation stood (even if incorrect).

But without any credible proof and backing from peers, you have to go with the simplest explanation, or the world would be mess of unproven theories.

Edit: I love these boards, gone from discussing salaries to Occams Razor to microscopic life It doesnt go more off-topic than that!
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:58 PM   #48 (permalink)
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But thats the point of the theory. There are scientists out there that probably have all kinds of crazy theories, some of them may even turn out right. The microscopic life thing you mentioned could never have been proved without evidence. So the simplest explanation stood (even if incorrect).

But without any credible proof and backing from peers, you have to go with the simplest explanation, or the world would be mess of unproven theories.

Edit: I love these boards, gone from discussing salaries to Occams Razor to microscopic life It doesnt go more off-topic than that!
But by that definition, Occam's razor is more a tool of convenience than one of likelyhood or actual merit as it pretends to be. As such it should have no say in a discussion on whether something is plausible, as we are using in regards to speculating about the UFCs financial workings.

But yes that is what I love about here too. More tangents than a geometry convention .
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:49 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:06 AM   #50 (permalink)
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not sure if this has been mentioned in here yet or not. a few very important facts:

1. The UFC is a private company.
2. The fighters are independent contractors
3. These are just numbers reported to the athletic comission as a "purse" for the fight.

Chael commentates and hosts shows on Fuel, does interviews that the UFC sends him on, travels and promotes himself through tons of media outlets. He likely gets paid handsomely by the UFC for all these things. As a privately held company and because the UFC doesnt have to pay taxes for their fighters as they are not "employees" but "contractors" (the fighters pay their taxes out of the money paid to them, as opposed to most of us who have the taxes taken out of their check). The ONLY number they have to disclose and the only one they choose to disclose is the "Purse prize" they give to the athletic commission. When you add up all the behind the scenes bonuses, paying guys for doing promotions and interviews, pay perview and sponsorship money, the "Purse" is just an irrelavent number. Its no where near what most of these guys make. Im very certain that guys like Chael dont just get 1 check after the fight. They probably get paid routinely throughout their year for doing promotional work and general foot work for the UFC. I dont have any facts to go by as no one decides to disclose these numbers. The ones that bitch about their pay (Nick Diaz, Tito) are typically the ones that bad mout the UFC and may not be offered such promotional opportunities to make more loot.
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