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Old 06-13-2013, 06:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Every Title Holder is now 185 pounds - Who wins?

Just an interesting thought I had came across. Everyone is at 185 with equivelent reach and size, so no weight advantage. Set up the matches

I think Silva takes most of them except for Cain. I think his pressure would be too much.
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:52 AM   #2 (permalink)
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GSP with a 6'2" MW frame would probably grind out Silva, heck a lot of people think GSP could do that with his current frame + 15 lbs of muscle. It may not be the most popular answer, given GSPs lack of finishes, but I think p4p GSP would take it style wise via decisions on most of these guys at a same size. He's not the flashiest of these guys, but the one who's shown the least number of holes. He's great on the feet, extraordinary with his wrestling, extraordinary with his grappling and sub-defense.

Jones would be interesting as well without his reach advantage. Maybe he'd still be the best, the man is vicious and his top game is brutal, and standup is also very good. The question is would his standup still be as good without the reach.

Anderson has clearly shown holes in his takedown defense and wrestling. He's the most impressive currently because of his finishes and domination, but he has holes.

Cain I don't think would be nearly as dangerous at a lower weight, his finishing ability would be much lower and his chin has already been cracked multiple times at HW, I don't see him doing to great against a same size Aldo or GSP. Aldo would test his chin and probably KO him. GSP would match him cardio for cardio, wrestling for wrestling, but with superior standup. I see that fight going the same way as most GSP vs aggressive wrestler matchups.

Cruz, Barao and Mighty Mouse are not even in it IMO. These guys are great but nothing about their skills is elite compared to the others. Their wrestling isn't on NCAA level, their striking is plain jane boxing and their BJJ skills are average-above average (no ADCC / tournament level creds).
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Cruz, Barao and Mighty Mouse are not even in it IMO. These guys are great but nothing about their skills is elite compared to the others. Their wrestling isn't on NCAA level, their striking is plain jane boxing and their BJJ skills are average-above average (no ADCC / tournament level creds).
That's what makes the question so impossible to answer. If they are all the same size but everything else remains the same, not many fighters would be able to deal with a 6+ foot mighty mouse bringing the same stamina and pace he has at 125.

If you are going to proportionally slow-down smaller fighters and speed-up bigger fighters, I believe Silva would come out on top.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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That's what makes the question so impossible to answer. If they are all the same size but everything else remains the same, not many fighters would be able to deal with a 6+ foot mighty mouse bringing the same stamina and pace he has at 125.

If you are going to proportionally slow-down smaller fighters and speed-up bigger fighters, I believe Silva would come out on top.
That's kind of a ridiculous assumption though, that someone would have the same speed and cardio at 205 lbs than they do at 125 while carrying around literally half the weight and feeding half the amount of muscle. If practically every flyweight moves frantically fast and practically every HW moves lethargically slow, then it stands to reason that it's not because all the fastest genes in humanity were all packed into men less than 5'4", it's because they're small.

There's a reason you don't find heavyweights moving fast or elephants running like Cheetahs, it's weight. At MW Mighty Mouse would scale up to have probably the same speed as any other MW, maybe slower (based on Mighty mouses' comparative speed next other flyweights, I'd imagine Anderson would be much faster as he is over every other MW). As a tradeoff he'd gain KO power and a better base, but Mighty mouse + those things still doesn't bring much to the table on the others who have these things and more.

If you wanna do it the other way round, if Overeem was 5'0" inches / 100 lbs but still magically kept his power, he'd probably still knock out HWs Duffee and Lesnar (he still has that same power) but he'd be able to do both at the same time with his amazing Flyweight speed.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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That's kind of a ridiculous assumption though, that someone would have the same speed and cardio at 205 lbs than they do at 125 while carrying around literally half the weight and feeding half the amount of muscle. If practically every flyweight moves frantically fast and practically every HW moves lethargically slow, then it stands to reason that it's not because all the fastest genes in humanity were all packed into men less than 5'4", it's because they're small.

There's a reason you don't find heavyweights moving fast or elephants running like Cheetahs, it's weight. At MW Mighty Mouse would scale up to have probably the same speed as any other MW, maybe slower (based on Mighty mouses' comparative speed next other flyweights, I'd imagine Anderson would be much faster as he is over every other MW). As a tradeoff he'd gain KO power and a better base, but Mighty mouse + those things still doesn't bring much to the table on the others who have these things and more.
The OP said the same skills at 185. I was just pointing out that outside of skillsets and power, speed is a massive factor when considering size. Of course Bigfoot cant move like Cruz. But seeing as we are speculating...
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The OP said the same skills at 185. I was just pointing out that outside of skillsets and power, speed is a massive factor when considering size. Of course Bigfoot cant move like Cruz. But seeing as we are speculating...
Movement speed is not a skill though, as in it can't be "learnt" per se. It's a passive attribute, primarily related to size and athleticism (which is only partially improvable).

I don't think the thread or p4p in general would make much sense if we just scaled what we wanted and how, you have to scale rationally and both directions.

Then again, since when is p4p rational? This is basically just another p4p thread in crafty 185 lb disguise, and at the end it all comes down to assumptions and loud opinions.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:31 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Movement speed is not a skill though, as in it can't be "learnt" per se. It's a passive attribute, primarily related to size and athleticism (which is only partially improvable).

I don't think the thread or p4p in general would make much sense if we just scaled what we wanted and how, you have to scale rationally and both directions.

Then again, since when is p4p rational? This is basically just another p4p thread in crafty 185 lb disguise, and at the end it all comes down to assumptions and loud opinions.
Agreed.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Movement speed is not a skill though, as in it can't be "learnt" per se. It's a passive attribute, primarily related to size and athleticism (which is only partially improvable).

I don't think the thread or p4p in general would make much sense if we just scaled what we wanted and how, you have to scale rationally and both directions.

Then again, since when is p4p rational? This is basically just another p4p thread in crafty 185 lb disguise, and at the end it all comes down to assumptions and loud opinions.
Although I do agree with what you said, I think that it's slightly different than a p4p thread. For instance, if GSP and Anderson were matched, GSP could possibly grind him out and take a win (Even though Andy is #1) same goes for GSP Cain or Bones Cain. MMA math doesn't really work most of the time..

That being said, this thread was purely in good fun and for speculation purposes. Obviously no one can prove anyone wrong but you can argue your poimt of view on the subject.

On another note, about the whole speed / cardio subject, let's just be realistic and say No mighty mouse is not going to have the same speed at 185, duh, but will he still be faster than the 185ers? Yes because speed is his primary attribute so to speak. As is Andersons prevision, Cains / GSP's pace, and Bones athletisism / Strength.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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let's just be realistic and say No mighty mouse is not going to have the same speed at 185, duh, but will he still be faster than the 185ers? Yes because speed is his primary attribute so to speak.
This is exactly why it becomes murky. For example, for all of GSPs skills, his strength is one of his premium features. If we are not including strength, speed and stamina then how do we consider a fight like GSP vs Cain?

We have to assume at 185 that Cain would be faster and GSP would be slower. How on earth do you make that comparison?

= the P4P debate is a load of old underwear.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:42 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Cruz - No, based on what I've seen from his body he's done.
Henderson - No, he's barely champ and that's with a huge physical advantage.
Jones - No, he lacks technical ability in almost every area.
Barao - No, he's unproven as a "great"
Silva - No, he rules over a shallow division of 205 washouts and he's old

So that leaves Aldo, Velasquez, Rousey, Johnson and GSP

First cut goes to Cain because while on paper Cain is solid he's still three fights away from being the undisputed best of HW division.

Second cut goes to Johnson because while his speed is impressive Dodson, Cruz and Torres demonstrated that his boxing, wrestling, and BJJ is not flawless.

So now we have three fighters and here's where it gets tricky.

GSP beats Rousey, Georges knows all the tricks to out point a fighter like Ronda.

Rousey beats Aldo, anyone can win a round against Aldo but nobody can put him away. Five Minute Ronda is so dangerous she could use her judo to get him on the ground and arm bar him.

Aldo beats GSP, Aldo's kicking game and defensive wrestling would make the fight very close and I could see him doing enough damage that he would win.
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