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Old 06-28-2013, 05:06 PM   #41 (permalink)
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People speak about being "dominated", without context or any sort of common sense.

There's a big difference between getting dominated with grappling and being dominated with strikes on the feet.

GSP as a fighter isn't conducive to being "dominated" because he's much more likely to get knocked out the second the he starts taking heavy damage, no one is going to "dominate" guys like Jones or GSP who are primarily top control grapplers by trade.


If they lose it will be getting hit and going out, getting hit enough times to lose a decision or getting tapped.


The stylistic impact of their losses is hilariously irrelevant though and part of the reason I dont even get into these conversations because the stupidity doesn't even merit entertaining.


Also getting knocked out is much worse than getting submitted...this isn't even arguable.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:22 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post

Also here's a case for Jones already being GOAT over Silva. Jones is essentially undefeated, Silva has THREE losses. Jones has never even been scratched and has only been in trouble like 5 secs in his entire career. He's never lost a single round in his entire life.

Aside from his 3 losses, Silva was also pounded for 4.5 rounds, has been taken down repeatedly (Chael 2, Henderson, Lutter, Otsuka), mounted, and lost many rounds.

Jones has never been in a boring/embarrassing/brain fart fight in his life. When the man steps into the cage, you know some bad shit is going down. Anderson spent 3 whole main event championship fights dancing and running away like a clown doing nothing.

All of Jones' UFC opponents have been legends/ex-champs or are veterans still going strong in the UFC. A bunch of Anderson's opponents couldn't even cut it in the UFC (Leites, Lutter, Cote), so Jones has consistently been facing better competition.

Anderson Silva has only faced 2 wrestlers in his entire 40 fight career (Sonnen, Hendo). 4 if you count half-baked wrestlers like Okami and Otsuka. Both of them took him down and stole at least a round from him if not more and actually battered him. It's very easy to look invincible when you hardly face your weakness, and look very human when you do. Let's see how he does against Weidman, then we'll talk.

Jones has smashed strikers on their feet and made them TAP to strikes, outwrestled NCAA all american wrestlers, submitted BJJ black belts, and never been threatened by any of it except for 5 secs in an armbar. Which he endured and escaped. Instead of tapping and crying later in the locker room like someone else.
Pretty sure Jones lost a round to Rashad on every card, and the first round against Machida is certainly debatable.

But let's address this embarrassing wall of text.

Yes and Andre Ward must be a greater fighter than Henry Armstrong. I thought people stopped using these idiotic arguments for combat sports a long time ago. Fighters are not measured in wins and losses(at least not by anyone who's opinion is worth a damn), they are measured in the degree of excellence they exhibit at their best.


Yes like how Jon Jones was nearly armbarred by a blown up middleweight with 3 submission wins in 33 fights.

It's hilarious how stylistic wrestlers are considered half baked(Sakurai, Okami) because they don't have world class wrestling pedigrees, yet the McBlackbelts that Jones fought that exploit his most discernible weakness somehow counts as world class submission fighters.

In reality Jones has fought absolutely zero dangerous submission fighters and won't for a long time because his division is pathetic.

Yeah like the last two guys Jones has fought that were blown up middleweights that Anderson already beat. This pathetic argument reminds me of when Pacquiao would fight guys Floyd had just beaten soundly and it would be ok because he was smaller...except it's even more pathetic because Jones is a near Heavyweight and is fighting SMALLER men. If you are talking strictly about the quality of opponents in his title run, I'm pretty sure Shogun with his bum knee isn't going strong anymore after his third surgery, dude hasn't looked good since the second Machida fight....Rampage was completely shot and literally lost the fight that got him the title shot in the first place.


So when you are talking about Jones' extremely overrated resume at LHW, you are talking about a win over Machida and a decision over Rashad. Yeah, real GOAT status. Wake me up when the guy starts fighting real light heavyweights again.



The dude is basically doing his best Joe Calzaghe impersonation and beating up on faded fighters or guys that are smaller than him. Jones right now has proven absolute **** all until he starts beating legitimate threats in their prime.


Henderson, Belfort, Sonnen, Franklin, all guys that proceeded to destroy everyone they fought for YEARS after Silva beat them...hell, Henderson was literally going to be the third blown up middleweight that Jones fought years after his prime just because LHW is so pathetic Henderson went up there at 40 and earned a title shot with his one dimensional right hand bombs.



The guys that Jones beat? There's Rashad who lost to Lil Nog of all people and has looked abysmal ever since....there's Rampage who got schooled by Bader and is now in Bellator, there's Belfort whos still a monster....at middleweight(he even took that fight against Jones on short notice if there was anything else needed to discredit that pathetic win)

Shogun who is ducking fights and losing fights in one sided fashion to anyone good, and Lyoto who is still moderately steady.


Yeah what a resume Jones has....guy is right up there with Fedor and his amazing wins over Tim Sylvia, Arlovski, and Mark Coleman.




The only person who can be compared to Silva right now is GSP....and GSP isn't nearly as well rounded and perfect as people make him out to be....we'll see when he fights Hendricks, but I'm already half-expecting people to play the past his prime card if/when GSP loses to arguably the most well rounded, dangerous guy the guy has fought in his career.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:39 PM   #43 (permalink)
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And plus...
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Originally Posted by Canadian Psycho View Post
...despite tearing your big toe in half and still dominating the fight is defying adversity.
Anybody who watched that fight live knows for a fact Jones never knew he had that nasty broken toe until Joe Rogan pointed that out after the fight and led him close to shock for the post fight interview.
If Jones spotted that severe injury during the fight I guarantee he would not continue. No one would, unless heavily drugged.
So, no. Not against Sonnen, he wasn't aware of no adversity at all.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:06 PM   #44 (permalink)
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imagine if the ufc took the pride rules for stalling etc he would have been even harder to beat

and gsp wouldnt get a look in for best p4p

jones gets a look in though either way
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:43 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Pretty sure Jones lost a round to Rashad on every card, and the first round against Machida is certainly debatable.

But let's address this embarrassing wall of text.

Yes and Andre Ward must be a greater fighter than Henry Armstrong. I thought people stopped using these idiotic arguments for combat sports a long time ago. Fighters are not measured in wins and losses(at least not by anyone who's opinion is worth a damn), they are measured in the degree of excellence they exhibit at their best.


Yes like how Jon Jones was nearly armbarred by a blown up middleweight with 3 submission wins in 33 fights.

It's hilarious how stylistic wrestlers are considered half baked(Sakurai, Okami) because they don't have world class wrestling pedigrees, yet the McBlackbelts that Jones fought that exploit his most discernible weakness somehow counts as world class submission fighters.

In reality Jones has fought absolutely zero dangerous submission fighters and won't for a long time because his division is pathetic.

Yeah like the last two guys Jones has fought that were blown up middleweights that Anderson already beat. This pathetic argument reminds me of when Pacquiao would fight guys Floyd had just beaten soundly and it would be ok because he was smaller...except it's even more pathetic because Jones is a near Heavyweight and is fighting SMALLER men. If you are talking strictly about the quality of opponents in his title run, I'm pretty sure Shogun with his bum knee isn't going strong anymore after his third surgery, dude hasn't looked good since the second Machida fight....Rampage was completely shot and literally lost the fight that got him the title shot in the first place.


So when you are talking about Jones' extremely overrated resume at LHW, you are talking about a win over Machida and a decision over Rashad. Yeah, real GOAT status. Wake me up when the guy starts fighting real light heavyweights again.



The dude is basically doing his best Joe Calzaghe impersonation and beating up on faded fighters or guys that are smaller than him. Jones right now has proven absolute **** all until he starts beating legitimate threats in their prime.


Henderson, Belfort, Sonnen, Franklin, all guys that proceeded to destroy everyone they fought for YEARS after Silva beat them...hell, Henderson was literally going to be the third blown up middleweight that Jones fought years after his prime just because LHW is so pathetic Henderson went up there at 40 and earned a title shot with his one dimensional right hand bombs.



The guys that Jones beat? There's Rashad who lost to Lil Nog of all people and has looked abysmal ever since....there's Rampage who got schooled by Bader and is now in Bellator, there's Belfort whos still a monster....at middleweight(he even took that fight against Jones on short notice if there was anything else needed to discredit that pathetic win)

Shogun who is ducking fights and losing fights in one sided fashion to anyone good, and Lyoto who is still moderately steady.


Yeah what a resume Jones has....guy is right up there with Fedor and his amazing wins over Tim Sylvia, Arlovski, and Mark Coleman.




The only person who can be compared to Silva right now is GSP....and GSP isn't nearly as well rounded and perfect as people make him out to be....we'll see when he fights Hendricks, but I'm already half-expecting people to play the past his prime card if/when GSP loses to arguably the most well rounded, dangerous guy the guy has fought in his career.
So you reply to my mini garden wall of text with a boring and nonsensical great wall of china? Irony is lost on some people. Since we're already building castles here though, I'll add on.

So Jones lost A round, EVER. A close one at that. You got me. It still doesn't compare to 3 embarrassing losses to complete cans, 4.5 rounds of complete pounding, and being mounted by a fat, dehydrated reality TV winner who got booted out of the UFC.

I'm not going to comment much on the Ward comparison because frankly I couldn't be bothered to follow that boring pillow fighting hugfest of a sport since the dawn of a more realistic combat sport in MMA. On the face of it though, yes, a champion and #2 rank p4p boxer certainly looks better than the one who lost 22 freaking times. "Legends" in grainy black and white always gain bloated reputations over time, and anyone questioning them is considered ignorant or not "educated" by the snobs of the sport. Give Armstrong another thousand years and you'll probably hear about how he slew dragons and smashed the armies of Troy. Then again maybe he was better than Ward by virtue of holding 3 belts at the same time. You can start comparing Anderson to him then when Anderson actually holds 3 belts too instead of beating cans in LHW in addition to ruling over one of the weakest divisions in MMA.

But anyway, I don't really care about the boxing comparison or to educate myself on it because I haven't watched a single fight of either and don't intend to. Please stop peppering your posts with boxing analogies because frankly most MMA fans don't care and this is an MMA forum.

Anderson has shown excellence only against people who PLAY HIS GAME. Stand and trade with him. Even Hendo only went down because he stopped going for his olympic level takedowns and decided to ply his slow overrated haymaker against a sniper striker. Sonnen lost because 1. his sub defense is the worst in the entire UFC and he still beat the snot out of Anderson for 4.5 rounds and 2. because he failed takedowns from short grabbing and went for another "awesome standup" move. Anderson has never looked "excellent" against wrestlers, and has always avoided them. Those two, I repeat, ARE the only two wrestlers he has ever fought. How convenient.

No Okami is not a wrestler, the dude hasn't been to a wrestling championship in his life or trained it at all until well into MMA. His background is in Judo, which makes him similar to a BJJ specialist not a pure wrestler. A wrestling background means just that, a BACKGROUND. You grow up with it. There will always be a difference between 20 years of doing something every day and doing it for 5.

If every guy who practices shoots and sprawls for a couple of years is a wrestler then there are no non wrestlers in all of MMA! Even GSP is only so great a late wrestler because of him mixing his striking so very well and having great reflexes, I have no doubt he would lose in pure wrestling to most of those wrestlers he beat in MMA. And GSP is just the exception, not the rule. A very talented prodigy and an extremely rare exception. Otherwise you want to see what a "stylistic wrestler" looks like against a real wrestler then rewatch Okami's fight against Chael.

Yeah the last two guys Jones fought were middleweights ... guess what, one was a last minute replacement when no one else wanted the fight on 3 weeks notice. The other was forced upon him by whining fans and a money hungry WWE loving boss, not because he was at the top of the LHW division. And barring 5 secs he owned both them as expected and moved on, big deal.

Anderson on the other hand fought the likes of Leites, Cote and Lutter .. the "crem de la crem" of the MW division all "#1 contenders" lol after full camps and still looked like crap in those fights, either purposely or positionally.

Franklin was also probably the most overrated champion of all time in the UFC. Was beating people for YEARS after the Anderson loss you say? That's funny because his resume since then looks like a christmas tree, with the only little green lights coming over incredible competition like Lutter, MacDonald and geriatric Chuck and Wanderlei. But you're right, Rashad's one off decision loss followed by a win over Hendo is much worse than Franklin getting his head knocked off in minutes by Vitor and geriatric Le let alone his decision losses to the guy Rashad just beat and Forrest freakin griffin.

Wow Vitor with his ADCC Absolute division bronze and 3 sub wins is a McBlack belt, but Anderson with his 4 excuse me 3 subs + 1 pseudo sub with illegal elbows, in more fights than Vitor, and not even casting a shadow on any grappling contest mats is the amazing BJJ black belt par excellence. You know, the one "who'll always find a way to sub you even if you take him down". If you suck at sub defense. Or are a fat gassed guy. Or a guy who's already knocked out.

But all this text is useless, the Weidman fight will prove it all one way or another.

If Anderson demolishes Weidman easily, say a rd 1/2 TKO, I will gladly come in here and apologize for my misgivings about Anderson's style and give kudos to the guys who said I was wrong. Yes, even you copter, though it's certainly not going out on a limb calling an Anderson win. You can be smug all you want then, and I'll eat crow. Even with Anderson wisely catching Weidman at the worst time coming off a long layoff.

IF however Weidman beats or even pounds/challenges Silva (regardless of if Anderson pulls out a miracle hail mary at the end) then it only proves that Anderson is indeed a great but ultimately flawed and weaker fighter than Jones with a glaring hole in his game.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:21 AM   #46 (permalink)
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The most evolving MMA fighter in the world, originally a Muay Thai fighter has already shown to the world he dedicated himself to learn effective Jiu-Jitsu to the core, not only flashy make believe one.

Training Jiu-Jitsu with the best among the best, knowing Anderson, his commitment to results an discipline and what he accomplished already, makes me laugh about those who still doubt his grappling abilities.

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Old 06-29-2013, 09:27 AM   #47 (permalink)
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The most evolving MMA fighter in the world, originally a Muay Thai fighter has already shown to the world he dedicated himself to learn effective Jiu-Jitsu to the core, not only flashy make believe one.

Training Jiu-Jitsu with the best among the best, knowing Anderson, his commitment to results an discipline and what he accomplished already, makes me laugh about those who still doubt his grappling abilities.

That's because his BJJ is ok at best, he doesn't have an active guard throwing up subs all the time and sweeps and constantly stands up. No once he goes down he usually doesn't get back up as seen in the newton,henderson and sonnen fights. had you have said Maia or gracie or jacare or nick diaz I would have been inclined to agree.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:45 AM   #48 (permalink)
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That's because his BJJ is ok at best, he doesn't have an active guard throwing up subs all the time and sweeps and constantly stands up. No once he goes down he usually doesn't get back up as seen in the newton,henderson and sonnen fights. had you have said Maia or gracie or jacare or nick diaz I would have been inclined to agree.
But that's exactly what I mean, OWNS. His OK Jiu-Jitsu payed off already. He is still a stand-up fighter. You mentioned the names of bright solid accomplished BJJ practitioners. Anderson is a bright student and the OK JJ he already learned granted him submission wins, including a coming from behind belt saving one. His OK Jiu-Jitsu is more than enough to make him a complete MMA fighter.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:49 AM   #49 (permalink)
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But that's exactly what I mean, OWNS. His OK Jiu-Jitsu payed off already. He is still a stand-up fighter. You mentioned the names of bright solid accomplished BJJ practitioners. Anderson is a bright student and the OK JJ he already learned granted him submission wins, including a coming from behind belt saving one. His OK Jiu-Jitsu is more than enough to make him a complete MMA fighter.
I didn't discount that, but what i'm saying is that when a high level grapple gets his hands on anderson and gets him down it's not as though the person on top is gonna be on constant danger. Which is why weidman stands a better chance than most because he is not mentally challenged enough to think he can stand with anderson or stare at anderson like a statue in fear until he loses.

I'm just curious of anderson's choke defense since weidman has a killer darce choke and guiolltine to which he nearly darced andre galvao at ADCC when he was a BJJ rookie.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:58 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MMA-Sportsman View Post
The most evolving MMA fighter in the world, originally a Muay Thai fighter has already shown to the world he dedicated himself to learn effective Jiu-Jitsu to the core, not only flashy make believe one.

Training Jiu-Jitsu with the best among the best, knowing Anderson, his commitment to results an discipline and what he accomplished already, makes me laugh about those who still doubt his grappling abilities.

Every MMA fighter trains with elite BJJ instructors obviously, otherwise they'd be gone in 60 seconds like everyone at UFC 1. The fact is that in nearly a decade and a half of fighting, Anderson hasn't even qualified for a single high level grappling tournament to showcase his "elite" grappling or has a single grappling accolade.

His greatest BJJ achievement was "subbing" Lutter with borderline illegal elbows in a triangle he couldn't even secure. A completely gassed Lutter who went to the buffet (literally, true story) the week of the fight, then drained every ounce of water in his body and still couldn't make weight for a TITLE fight. He practically fell out of mount to give Anderson the position.

Let's not forget him "subbing" Hendo, a guy he basically knocked out.

And of course the unsubbable Chael Sonnen, the man with the worst submission loss record in UFC history.

Lastly there's some 2-5 Raimundo Pinheiro in his first ever pro fight.

I'm sure these marvelous accolades put him head and shoulders above Weidman, who has twice the per-fight sub rate (2 subs in just 9 fights) including a brilliant standing guillotine. He qualified for ADCC with just 1 year of training and took Galvao, a multi-multi-time champ to a very close decision. Not just stalling, but actually going for subs and threatening.

Anderson is basically a striker. An amazing, brilliant, awesome, invincible striker, but a striker. With some reflex based TDD and basic subs.
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